Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hinduwoman · 03-28-2004, 02:13 AM

That seems to me to be very important.
What use is God to us? The believer and atheist alike, the sinner and saint alike have to follow the same natural laws; the sun shines on them equally; the computer works(or not) for all equally; we all die eventually.

So what do we need this God for?

lunachick · 03-28-2004, 02:29 AM

He hasn't shown up for work in bloody years, but still gets a pretty fat paycheck. I think he should be fired.

Ojuice5001 · 03-28-2004, 07:12 AM

Well, now, this is based on the idea, which I find scarcely credible, that the gods are not active in the everyday affairs that take place in the natural world. The two most important ways that the gods do act in the affairs of humans:

1. Internal state of mind: The gods affect the state of mind of their worshippers. They can make someone more accepting of the world, more at one with the god's own purposes for the world, and more understanding of the conceptual aspect of life. Of course, they could do these things to an atheist if they wanted to, but it would be harder, because the atheist isn't actively cooperating.

2. Control over the hand of fate: Some natural events are indeterminate, and, if you consider only natural factors, they could happen in one of several ways. A god can exert its will, and make them happen in the way it wants. One event that is sometimes indeterminate, BTW, is whether a computer works or not (but of course, sometimes a computer is bound to fail regardless of luck, and sometimes it is bound to work regardless of anything that could happen in the next few minutes).

Okay, so the gods control matters of luck; they often (but IMO, not always) want you to be a theist, and, if you are a theist, they care how you treat them. Does this imply that theists may often have better luck than atheists? Yes. So why does it look to most atheists (and some theists) as if "the rain falls on the theist and the atheist"? Well, in the first place, god-belief is only one factor in determining luck, and there are so many others that the effect would be highly muted. There are also events that seem to be indeterminate but are not (and thus, are solely the working of natural laws); impersonal supernatural factors other than the gods' actions; gods other than the one(s) worshipped by the theist; reasons for a god to act in someone's life other than that person's benefit; criteria that people are judged by other than mere acceptance or rejection of theism; and events that seem to be bad luck but, if we could see every aspect of the situation, are nothing of the kind. Also to be noted is that, if an atheist has good qualities other than being a religious believer, he could easily be as favored as some theists, and likewise someone who believes in gods, but is otherwise a good-for-nothing, would not be favored, and might or might not appear to be.

Anyway, the gods are not remote from the empirical world. On the contrary, they are intimately connected with the rest of the world, and the points above are two of the ways in which this is so. Really, I'm not surprised that you on this board would be atheists once you had decided the gods are irrelevant to everyday life. Almost anyone would.

joedad · 03-28-2004, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojuice5001

Anyway, the gods are not remote from the empirical world. On the contrary, they are intimately connected with the rest of the world, and the points above are two of the ways in which this is so. Really, I'm not surprised that you on this board would be atheists once you had decided the gods are irrelevant to everyday life. Almost anyone would.

Don't know what these god things are. Whatever they are though, it appears that the "everything" part of the question is necessary for gods, and not the other way around. In conclusion:

The universe exists.
Therefore god ideas exist.

Starboy · 03-28-2004, 08:32 AM

It doesn't appear that the universe needs god, but man appears to need god. Since there is no god what man apparently requires is an artificial god.

Is there an artifical god?

Starboy

Crowder · 03-28-2004, 08:35 AM

A god is useful for tv evangelists to cheat old women out of their social security checks.

Katarzyna · 03-28-2004, 09:12 AM

I think a god could be useful, if it chose to be. So either god doesn't exist, or it chooses to not be useful.

Kat

Gawdawful · 03-28-2004, 10:56 AM

The manipulation of the people with a belief in god(s) can be quite useful to the steal 10% or more of their money. Belief in god is of no use at all, like the old proverb says, "Two hands working can get more done than a thousand hands clasped in prayer." So, if there is a god, he/she/it hasn't made themselves particularly useful to daily life of these organic lifeforms that pay homage to that invisible thing they call god. God don't put groceries on table or pay the rent.

Warren

Calzaer · 03-28-2004, 12:37 PM

I really dislike the false dichotomy in that poll.

Ojuice5001 · 03-28-2004, 12:46 PM

Me too. I think that "we need him" goes too far, especially if "we" means all humans. There's no reason humans couldn't be happy and successful in either a world where gods don't exist, or a world where gods exist, but the human in question doesn't know it. But of course, "he is of no use, even if he exists" is also completely wrong; it could only be true in deism or a similar belief, not in most actual revealed religions.

I voted for "we need him" anyway, because it's less wrong, and for its gadfly factor.

View Poll Results: What use is God?
We need him	5	5.15%
He is of no use, even if he exists	92	94.85%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

03-28-2004, 02:13 AM	#1
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Do we need God for anything? That seems to me to be very important. What use is God to us? The believer and atheist alike, the sinner and saint alike have to follow the same natural laws; the sun shines on them equally; the computer works(or not) for all equally; we all die eventually. So what do we need this God for?

03-28-2004, 08:35 AM	#6
Crowder Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: IL, USA Posts: 21	He is useful... A god is useful for tv evangelists to cheat old women out of their social security checks.

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03-28-2004, 02:29 AM	#2
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	He hasn't shown up for work in bloody years, but still gets a pretty fat paycheck. I think he should be fired.

03-28-2004, 07:12 AM	#3
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Well, now, this is based on the idea, which I find scarcely credible, that the gods are not active in the everyday affairs that take place in the natural world. The two most important ways that the gods do act in the affairs of humans: 1. Internal state of mind: The gods affect the state of mind of their worshippers. They can make someone more accepting of the world, more at one with the god's own purposes for the world, and more understanding of the conceptual aspect of life. Of course, they could do these things to an atheist if they wanted to, but it would be harder, because the atheist isn't actively cooperating. 2. Control over the hand of fate: Some natural events are indeterminate, and, if you consider only natural factors, they could happen in one of several ways. A god can exert its will, and make them happen in the way it wants. One event that is sometimes indeterminate, BTW, is whether a computer works or not (but of course, sometimes a computer is bound to fail regardless of luck, and sometimes it is bound to work regardless of anything that could happen in the next few minutes). Okay, so the gods control matters of luck; they often (but IMO, not always) want you to be a theist, and, if you are a theist, they care how you treat them. Does this imply that theists may often have better luck than atheists? Yes. So why does it look to most atheists (and some theists) as if "the rain falls on the theist and the atheist"? Well, in the first place, god-belief is only one factor in determining luck, and there are so many others that the effect would be highly muted. There are also events that seem to be indeterminate but are not (and thus, are solely the working of natural laws); impersonal supernatural factors other than the gods' actions; gods other than the one(s) worshipped by the theist; reasons for a god to act in someone's life other than that person's benefit; criteria that people are judged by other than mere acceptance or rejection of theism; and events that seem to be bad luck but, if we could see every aspect of the situation, are nothing of the kind. Also to be noted is that, if an atheist has good qualities other than being a religious believer, he could easily be as favored as some theists, and likewise someone who believes in gods, but is otherwise a good-for-nothing, would not be favored, and might or might not appear to be. Anyway, the gods are not remote from the empirical world. On the contrary, they are intimately connected with the rest of the world, and the points above are two of the ways in which this is so. Really, I'm not surprised that you on this board would be atheists once you had decided the gods are irrelevant to everyday life. Almost anyone would.

03-28-2004, 08:32 AM	#5
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	It doesn't appear that the universe needs god, but man appears to need god. Since there is no god what man apparently requires is an artificial god. Is there an artifical god? Starboy

03-28-2004, 09:12 AM	#7
Katarzyna Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 977	I think a god could be useful, if it chose to be. So either god doesn't exist, or it chooses to not be useful. Kat

03-28-2004, 10:56 AM	#8
Gawdawful Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In a cardboard box under the viaduct. Posts: 2,107	The manipulation of the people with a belief in god(s) can be quite useful to the steal 10% or more of their money. Belief in god is of no use at all, like the old proverb says, "Two hands working can get more done than a thousand hands clasped in prayer." So, if there is a god, he/she/it hasn't made themselves particularly useful to daily life of these organic lifeforms that pay homage to that invisible thing they call god. God don't put groceries on table or pay the rent. Warren

03-28-2004, 12:37 PM	#9
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	I really dislike the false dichotomy in that poll.

03-28-2004, 12:46 PM	#10
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Me too. I think that "we need him" goes too far, especially if "we" means all humans. There's no reason humans couldn't be happy and successful in either a world where gods don't exist, or a world where gods exist, but the human in question doesn't know it. But of course, "he is of no use, even if he exists" is also completely wrong; it could only be true in deism or a similar belief, not in most actual revealed religions. I voted for "we need him" anyway, because it's less wrong, and for its gadfly factor.

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