Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sschlichter · 09-25-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

You're assuming that those chapters had only one author. Most modern scholarship begs to differ.

then the editor(s) had some purpose, it doesn't matter. What is the Jewish God's relationship to Gentiles? simple question and it is answered in the Old Testament. Why can't you answer it?

doug, I did not read that this post was from you. please ignore the question at the end, it is for storytime.

~steve

sschlichter · 09-25-2008, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

then the editor(s) had some purpose, it doesn't matter. What is the Jewish God's relationship to Gentiles? simple question and it is answered in the Old Testament. Why can't you answer it?

Most of the OT prophecies concerning the gentiles refer to God's punishment of Israel's enemies. Isaiah is exceptional.

no, it is not. most deals with the punishment of the Jews for disobedience. some deals with god raising up Israels enemies, some deals with gods punishment of others. all deals with gods concern for his people who were supposed to represent him to the gentiles. and, at times they did.

~steve

sschlichter · 09-25-2008, 07:43 AM

[QUOTE=storytime;5571754]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Here's what you said: "..you prefer to explore your question of what Jesus taught, then we can go thru one of the gospels. you pick."

Here's what I said: "..so lets start with your theist belief that Jesus established a new covenant that includes uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Can you provide the scriptural evidence for Jesus doing this?"

Evidently you cannot provide the text of what Jesus said - allowing the text to speak for itself, (without my talking over it, as you put it).

Excuse me, but it's pretty obvious that what Christians have done for 1500+ years is to talk over them, inventing their own interpretations irregardless of Jewish thought on the matters.

God had no concern for Gentiles except to advantage his own people, the Israelites. Ninevah was no exception to His rule. Gentiles were always to be considered as the slave class by the God who predestined His chosen people to rule and not serve, a people that give their origin from the first man Adam, who consist of the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews.

You honestly don't believe that you have the only interpretation of the bible stories do you?

Like I said, God had no concern for the Gentiles except to be slaves for the Jews. And, you fail to recognize that Jewish people were also Hebrews in their forefathers, as the story goes. A name change occured in Jacob who became known as Israel and served the tribal community of twelve sons, all in the House name and covenant made with Abraham. There is an evolving strategy to instill loyalty to the one God of Hebrew invention. First there was circumcision, then 450 years later the law of Moses. What you have is the old and new covenant, and which you refuse to accept because you say Jesus made his own covenant that includes uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles and called it "new". What I'm doing is challenging your pre-conditioned belief by asking you to show the scriptural text where Jesus did this. I want to read it for myself, just as others want to read it.

Oh, but I am persuaded by the ugliness of Christian America that it is most definetly worth the time, especially for people who are willing and determined to kill and destroy human life in support of this illegitimate and fabricated religion that theist say is god breathed. We are seeing at this very time in our history the most vulgar and obnoxious display of what Christianity can do to not only America but the world at large. And all because this bastardized Judaism in its invented religion is now running our government under its creed of my way or the highway, and teaching hate and contempt for non Christians. So, I for one at least, think it imperative that your theist belief be countered with a more realistic interpretation of the bible. And if you feel offended then I consider how much more offended are those who have been victimized by the bible thumping lunatics.

I will go ahead and answer your question but it is a waste of time. I am in a dentist office right now though.

I would be interested in hearing how you have been victimized by christs followers.

~steve

storytime · 09-25-2008, 10:49 AM

[QUOTE=sschlichter;5571849]

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I will go ahead and answer your question but it is a waste of time. I am in a dentist office right now though.

I would be interested in hearing how you have been victimized by christs followers.

~steve

I'll await your answer. Personal gripes are for another forum thread.

Have you seen the horror movie "The Dentist?"
:Cheeky::Cheeky::Cheeky:

sschlichter · 09-25-2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Evidently you cannot provide the text of what Jesus said - allowing the text to speak for itself, (without my talking over it, as you put it).

Jesus repeatedly breaks the tradition set up by men.

(John 9:16) Then some of the Pharisees began to say, "This man is not from God, because he does not observe the Sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner perform such miraculous signs?" Thus there was a division among them.

Jesus re-clarifes what the God of the Old Testament required

(Matt 9:13) Go and learn what this saying means: ' I want mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jesus points out that his disciples do not honor the Word of the law, without honoring the Spirit of the law.

(Mark 7:5) The Pharisees and the experts in the law asked him, "Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with unwashed hands?"
(Mark 7:6) He said to them, "Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written:
' This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me.
(Mark 7:7) They worship me in vain,
teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.'
(Mark 7:8) Having no regard for the command of God, you hold fast to human tradition."
(Mark 7:9) He also said to them, "You neatly reject the commandment of God in order to set up your tradition.(Mark 7:10) For Moses said, ' Honor your father and your mother,' and, ' Whoever insults his father or mother must be put to death.'
(Mark 7:11) But you say that if anyone tells his father or mother, 'Whatever help you would have received from me is corban' (that is, a gift for God),
(Mark 7:12) then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother.
(Mark 7:13) Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like this."
(Mark 7:14) Then he called the crowd again and said to them, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand.
(Mark 7:15) There is nothing outside of a person that can defile him by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles him."

Jesus notifies disciples they will be a witness to the gentiles.

(Matt 10:18) And you will be brought before governors and kings because of me, as a witness to them and the Gentiles.

Jesus knows Isaiah is talking about him and agrees that it is by him gentiles will hope.

(Matt 12:15)
Now when Jesus learned of this, he went away from there. Great crowds followed him, and he healed them all.
(Matt 12:16) But he sternly warned them not to make him known.
(Matt 12:17) This fulfilled what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet:
(Matt 12:18) " Here my servant whom I have chosen, }
the one I love, in whom I take great delight.
I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
(Matt 12:19) He will not quarrel or cry out,
nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets.
(Matt 12:20) He will not break a bruised reed or extinguish a smoldering wick,
until he brings justice to victory.
(Matt 12:21) And in his name the Gentiles will hope."

Simeon recognizes the purpose of the Christ

(Luke 2:30) For my eyes have seen your salvation
(Luke 2:31) that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples:
(Luke 2:32) a light,
for revelation to the Gentiles,
and for glory to your people Israel."

Jesus commends the faith of a centurion

(Luke 7:9) When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him. He turned and said to the crowd that followed him, "I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith!"

Jesus explains the parable of the tenants
(Matt 21:42) Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures:
' The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.
This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
(Matt 21:43) For this reason I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.(Matt 21:44) The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, and the one on whom it falls will be crushed."
(Matt 21:45) When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they realized that he was speaking about them.
(Matt 21:46) They wanted to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowds, because the crowds regarded him as a prophet.

Quote:

Excuse me, but it's pretty obvious that what Christians have done for 1500+ years is to talk over them, inventing their own interpretations irregardless of Jewish thought on the matters.

I have not quoted one Christian.

Quote:

God had no concern for Gentiles except to advantage his own people, the Israelites. Ninevah was no exception to His rule. Gentiles were always to be considered as the slave class by the God who predestined His chosen people to rule and not serve, a people that give their origin from the first man Adam, who consist of the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews.

I guess we will have to go word by word then.

(Jon 4:11) Should I not be even more concerned about Nineveh, this enormous city?

God is concerned for Nineveh and angry at Jonah for his lack of concern.

There are more than one hundred twenty thousand people in it who do not know right from wrong, as well as many animals!"

God is concerned for the people in Nineveh because they are lost and do not know right from wrong. God is also concerned for the animals contrasting Jonahs concern for a leaf / worm.

What service is being given Israel here? Is Jonah supposed to bind them all up now that they repented and take them home for slaves? What book are you reading?

Quote:

You honestly don't believe that you have the only interpretation of the bible stories do you?

in this conversation, yes, I do beleive that.

Quote:

Like I said, God had no concern for the Gentiles except to be slaves for the Jews. And, you fail to recognize that Jewish people were also Hebrews in their forefathers, as the story goes. A name change occured in Jacob who became known as Israel and served the tribal community of twelve sons, all in the House name and covenant made with Abraham. There is an evolving strategy to instill loyalty to the one God of Hebrew invention. First there was circumcision, then 450 years later the law of Moses. What you have is the old and new covenant, and which you refuse to accept because you say Jesus made his own covenant that includes uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles and called it "new". What I'm doing is challenging your pre-conditioned belief by asking you to show the scriptural text where Jesus did this. I want to read it for myself, just as others want to read it.

then answer the questions (about 10 now) that i asked about gentiles in the Old Testament.

Quote:

Oh, but I am persuaded by the ugliness of Christian America that it is most definetly worth the time, especially for people who are willing and determined to kill and destroy human life in support of this illegitimate and fabricated religion that theist say is god breathed. We are seeing at this very time in our history the most vulgar and obnoxious display of what Christianity can do to not only America but the world at large. And all because this bastardized Judaism in its invented religion is now running our government under its creed of my way or the highway, and teaching hate and contempt for non Christians. So, I for one at least, think it imperative that your theist belief be countered with a more realistic interpretation of the bible. And if you feel offended then I consider how much more offended are those who have been victimized by the bible thumping lunatics.

Perhaps you should move to a country where there is no christian influence. there are not many but a few remain. Perhaps Saudi Arabia. I am sure your views will be more respected there. Perhaps you could start the Mecca branch of Internet Infidels. think of it, no Christians, free speech, say whatever you like.

~Steve

storytime · 09-25-2008, 11:36 AM

You misquoted what Jesus said.

Matthew 10:16-18. "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues,

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony AGAINST them and the Gentiles."

Now, how is it that Jesus made a new covenant against the commandments of his God, with the Gentiles? Looks to me like Jesus was telling his disciples that they would make testimony against them.

Have you read the part where Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have obeyed the commandments of their God first, and while not leaving their tradition? No covenant with Gentiles yet to be seen.

Jesus references Isaiah in argument against the Pharisees. I don't see Jesus offering a covenant to Gentiles by the Jews or as him speaking specifically of nations as other people in the world. Remember, Jesus was not sent to the world, his mission was to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. In this regard, Jesus excluded all Gentiles in the world. Being a light to the nations then as referring to tribes of Israel due to glory being brought to God through Israel. No covenant with Gentiles seen.

What about the Gentiles in the OT? They had their own gods. The Hebrews also wanted their own god and so they created a god for themselves that excluded uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles.

To counter your insullence, perhaps you should find the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Maybe you could visit Israel and speak with a few university scholars and they could help you find that NEW covenant that forces them out of their chosen and elect identity.

Now, provide the scripture that Jesus made a covenant with Gentiles or remain looking like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

sschlichter · 09-25-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

You misquoted what Jesus said.

Matthew 10:16-18. "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues,

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony AGAINST them and the Gentiles."

Now, how is it that Jesus made a new covenant against the commandments of his God, with the Gentiles? Looks to me like Jesus was telling his disciples that they would make testimony against them.

Have you read the part where Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have obeyed the commandments of their God first, and while not leaving their tradition? No covenant with Gentiles yet to be seen.

Jesus references Isaiah in argument against the Pharisees. I don't see Jesus offering a covenant to Gentiles by the Jews or as him speaking specifically of nations as other people in the world. Remember, Jesus was not sent to the world, his mission was to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. In this regard, Jesus excluded all Gentiles in the world. Being a light to the nations then as referring to tribes of Israel due to glory being brought to God through Israel. No covenant with Gentiles seen.

What about the Gentiles in the OT? They had their own gods. The Hebrews also wanted their own god and so they created a god for themselves that excluded uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles.

To counter your insullence, perhaps you should find the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Maybe you could visit Israel and speak with a few university scholars and they could help you find that NEW covenant that forces them out of their chosen and elect identity.

Now, provide the scripture that Jesus made a covenant with Gentiles or remain looking like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

As I said, waste of time. You responded to 1/10 of the issues I raised and that inaccurately. I did not misquote at all.

I am going to Israel in march, lets' talk when I get back. I am sure I will see the light while I am there. :wave:

~Steve

sschlichter · 09-25-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

You misquoted what Jesus said.

Matthew 10:16-18. "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues,

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony AGAINST them and the Gentiles."

Now, how is it that Jesus made a new covenant against the commandments of his God, with the Gentiles? Looks to me like Jesus was telling his disciples that they would make testimony against them.

Have you read the part where Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have obeyed the commandments of their God first, and while not leaving their tradition? No covenant with Gentiles yet to be seen.

Jesus references Isaiah in argument against the Pharisees. I don't see Jesus offering a covenant to Gentiles by the Jews or as him speaking specifically of nations as other people in the world. Remember, Jesus was not sent to the world, his mission was to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. In this regard, Jesus excluded all Gentiles in the world. Being a light to the nations then as referring to tribes of Israel due to glory being brought to God through Israel. No covenant with Gentiles seen.

What about the Gentiles in the OT? They had their own gods. The Hebrews also wanted their own god and so they created a god for themselves that excluded uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles.

To counter your insullence, perhaps you should find the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Maybe you could visit Israel and speak with a few university scholars and they could help you find that NEW covenant that forces them out of their chosen and elect identity.

Now, provide the scripture that Jesus made a covenant with Gentiles or remain looking like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

This is the covenant that matters to me. What was lost when Eve took and ate is restored here:

(Matt 26:26)
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, "Take, eat, this is my body."
(Matt 26:27) And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
(Matt 26:28) for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
(Matt 26:29) I tell you, from now on I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

The new covenant is for Gentiles and Jews alike. This is it. Take it or leave it.

I am done. I apologize for my increasingly sarcastic tone.

storytime · 09-25-2008, 03:12 PM

[QUOTE=sschlichter;5572386]

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

You misquoted what Jesus said.

Matthew 10:16-18. "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues,

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony AGAINST them and the Gentiles."

Now, how is it that Jesus made a new covenant against the commandments of his God, with the Gentiles? Looks to me like Jesus was telling his disciples that they would make testimony against them.

Have you read the part where Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have obeyed the commandments of their God first, and while not leaving their tradition? No covenant with Gentiles yet to be seen.

Jesus references Isaiah in argument against the Pharisees. I don't see Jesus offering a covenant to Gentiles by the Jews or as him speaking specifically of nations as other people in the world. Remember, Jesus was not sent to the world, his mission was to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. In this regard, Jesus excluded all Gentiles in the world. Being a light to the nations then as referring to tribes of Israel due to glory being brought to God through Israel. No covenant with Gentiles seen.

What about the Gentiles in the OT? They had their own gods. The Hebrews also wanted their own god and so they created a god for themselves that excluded uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles.

To counter your insullence, perhaps you should find the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Maybe you could visit Israel and speak with a few university scholars and they could help you find that NEW covenant that forces them out of their chosen and elect identity.

Now, provide the scripture that Jesus made a covenant with Gentiles or remain looking like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Quote:

As I said, waste of time. You responded to 1/10 of the issues I raised and that inaccurately. I did not misquote at all.

Yes, according to my revised edition of the KJV, your quote was inaccurate. And I did respond to your questions but not with the answers you want to support your claim.

I'll conclude that you haven't found any scriptural evidence for Jesus making a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles because you can't find any. In the story, Jesus complimented people on their faith but that doesn't say he created a new covenant. In order that the scripture be fulfilled spoken by the prophet Isaiah, Jesus is reprimanding the Jews, and his reprimand has nothing to do with Gentiles. In fact, because of his laws, Jesus did not have nor was he given any authority as rabbi to speak anything about the oracles of God that was given to the people of Israel[Jews] alone. However, it was permitted to rabbi's to accept converts and on the same rules as for the Jews, circumcision and observance of law.

Quote:

I am going to Israel in march, lets' talk when I get back. I am sure I will see the light while I am there. :wave:

Have a nice visit to Israel. If you're lucky the Israeli's won't call you a lunatic. :rolling:

Of course in the meantime you could always consult a Jewish rabbi here about covenants and laws and idol worship.

storytime · 09-25-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

You misquoted what Jesus said.

Matthew 10:16-18. "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues,

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony AGAINST them and the Gentiles."

Now, how is it that Jesus made a new covenant against the commandments of his God, with the Gentiles? Looks to me like Jesus was telling his disciples that they would make testimony against them.

Have you read the part where Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have obeyed the commandments of their God first, and while not leaving their tradition? No covenant with Gentiles yet to be seen.

Jesus references Isaiah in argument against the Pharisees. I don't see Jesus offering a covenant to Gentiles by the Jews or as him speaking specifically of nations as other people in the world. Remember, Jesus was not sent to the world, his mission was to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. In this regard, Jesus excluded all Gentiles in the world. Being a light to the nations then as referring to tribes of Israel due to glory being brought to God through Israel. No covenant with Gentiles seen.

What about the Gentiles in the OT? They had their own gods. The Hebrews also wanted their own god and so they created a god for themselves that excluded uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles.

To counter your insullence, perhaps you should find the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Maybe you could visit Israel and speak with a few university scholars and they could help you find that NEW covenant that forces them out of their chosen and elect identity.

Now, provide the scripture that Jesus made a covenant with Gentiles or remain looking like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

This is the covenant that matters to me. What was lost when Eve took and ate is restored here:

(Matt 26:26)
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, "Take, eat, this is my body."
(Matt 26:27) And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
(Matt 26:28) for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
(Matt 26:29) I tell you, from now on I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

The new covenant is for Gentiles and Jews alike. This is it. Take it or leave it.

I am done. I apologize for my increasingly sarcastic tone.

There was no new covenant for Jews or Gentiles per your interpretation simply because there is no Gentiles in the Kingdom of God. Only those Gentiles who converted to Judaism would receive a changed identity from Gentile[uncircumcised,lawless] to Jew[the circumcised,observers of law]. What was expected of the Jew was also expected of the non Jew and so conversion to Judaism was required. In that reqard, God said there was no respecting of persons. You can read it, its in the OT.

Thank you for the apology Steve, and I to offer you my own.

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09-25-2008, 11:36 AM	#86
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	You misquoted what Jesus said. Matthew 10:16-18. "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye, therefore, wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues, And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony AGAINST them and the Gentiles." Now, how is it that Jesus made a new covenant against the commandments of his God, with the Gentiles? Looks to me like Jesus was telling his disciples that they would make testimony against them. Have you read the part where Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have obeyed the commandments of their God first, and while not leaving their tradition? No covenant with Gentiles yet to be seen. Jesus references Isaiah in argument against the Pharisees. I don't see Jesus offering a covenant to Gentiles by the Jews or as him speaking specifically of nations as other people in the world. Remember, Jesus was not sent to the world, his mission was to the lost sheep in the house of Israel. In this regard, Jesus excluded all Gentiles in the world. Being a light to the nations then as referring to tribes of Israel due to glory being brought to God through Israel. No covenant with Gentiles seen. What about the Gentiles in the OT? They had their own gods. The Hebrews also wanted their own god and so they created a god for themselves that excluded uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. To counter your insullence, perhaps you should find the scripture where Jesus made a covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. Maybe you could visit Israel and speak with a few university scholars and they could help you find that NEW covenant that forces them out of their chosen and elect identity. Now, provide the scripture that Jesus made a covenant with Gentiles or remain looking like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

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