aa5874

But, you must be able to show that some other writers confused the governor Pilate with Fadus the governor of Judea under Claudius Caesar.

Philo, Josephus and Justin Martyr showed no confusion about Pilate.

You have failed to take into account that "Irenaeus" preached PUBLICLY and was a BISHOP so he must have been confonted about his statement that Jesus was fifty years old since Pilate was the governor of Cladius Caesar.

ONLY if "Irenaeus was PREACHING and writing in a VACCUM would such an error be missed in book after book. Even Church writers would have ridiculed Irenaeus for such a MASIsVE ERROR and not once but twice.

Irenaeus was a FAKE BISHOP and WRITER of the 2ND century.



BUT, that is irrelevant. It can be shown that most Emperors were called by a single name by writers of antiquity.

Pilate was a governor under Tiberius and Fadus was a governor under Claudius. It is just that simple. See the writings of Justin Martyr, Josephus and Philo.

The fraud has been uncovered. No heretic or secular historian saw or heard "Irenaeus" staement that Pilate was the Governor of Cladius Caesar.

aa5874

I have located further information that tend to show that the writer called "Irenaeus" was a FAKE BISHOP and WRITER of the 2nd century. It is NOT conceivable that "Irenaeus" could have presented such HORRIBLE ARGUMENT to Heretics and PREACHED as a BISHOP that Jesus was fifty years old since Pilate was the governor of Claudius Caesar.

""Irenaeus" is said to be AWARE of Justin Martyr, gLuke, ACts of the Apostles, the Pauline writings and Josephus.

It is clear in gLuke that Jesus was baptized around the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius and that Jesus was crucified after a trial with Pilate.

In" First Apology" it is claimed Jesus was crucified under Pilate in the time of Tiberius.

In Acts of the Apostles 11, Claudius Caesar is mentioned AFTER the blinding bright light event with Saul/Paul and AFTER Jesus had ALREADY ascended through the cloud.

In 2 Corinthians 11.32-33 PAUL was already PREACHING in Damascus during the time of Aretas.

And in Josephus AJ 19.9.2, Fadus was a governor of Claudius Caesar long AFTER Pilate was governor of the DEAD Tiberius.

The claim of "Irenaeus" was so absurd that it could not have made by a BISHOP of the Church who was familiar with Justin Martyr, gLuke, Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline writings and Josephus. Nor could such an ridiculous claim be presented to a LIVE audience of Heretics or historians.

The FRAUD has been uncovered.

Irenaeus was a FAKE BISHOP and WRITER of the 2nd century.

It must be noted that a Church historian mentioned the name "IRENAEUS" over 40 times in his "Church History" and did not make any comment whatsoever about the teachings of Irenaeus that Jesus was 50 years old since Pilate was the governor of Cladius Caesar.

charles

By 'fake bishop' do you mean that Irenaeus wasn't really a bishop or that he never existed?

aa5874

I simply mean that the person who wrote "Against Heresies" was not a bishop of the Church and did not write to any heretics in the 2nd century as is claimed by the Church.

The CLAIM BY "Irenaeus" that Jesus was fifty years old when he suffered and that Pilate was the governor of Claudius Caesar is so absurdly erroneous that it is just inconceivable that "Irenaeus" used such an argument against the heretics who claimed Jesus was 30 years old when he was crucified.

There is evidence that any Church writer before or after "Irenaeus" ever used such an absurd non-historical argument against heretics.

And further "Against Heresies" is filled with bogus information.

Doug Shaver

And of course, no real Christian bishop would ever make an absurd error.

aa5874

There is an ERROR.

The passage should read "There is NO evidence that any Church writer before or after "Irenaeus" ever used such an absurd non-historical argument against heretics...."

aa5874

But, who is making such an illogical argument? It is not me.

Please, Please, Please, I never did say that no real Christian would ever make an absurd error.

I do not want to be associated with your flawed logics.

Evidence must be handled on a case by case basis.

I am dealing with EVIDENCE or sources of antiquity that appear to show that "Irenaeus" was making an argument against heretics who were claiming that Jesus was 30 years old when he was crucified.

Now, once "Irenaeus" wrote the Jesus was fifty years old when he suffered that in itself is HERESY. And it must be expected that BEFORE he wrote the absurd HERESY in his book that he PREACHED the very HERESY where ever he went. And then to compound his absurdity he wrote ANOTHER book and claimed that Pilate was the governor of Cladius Caesar.

Justin Martyr wrote that Jesus crucified under Pilate in the days of Tiberius.

Which heretic saw or heard the heresy and bogus history of "Irenaeus" in the 2nd century ?

None.

"Irenaeus was a FAKE BISHOP and WRITER .

darstec

But Tiberius was also called Claudius. Today we call each by the name of Tiberius and Claudius but with so precious little left to us, we have no idea how interchangeable those names were back then. How many people today refer to Julius Caesar as Gaius? Just like there were two different people called Eusebius we make the distinction between the creator of the Vulgate whom we call Jerome today and the creator of the fictitious Christian Histories we call Eusebius today.

You are making too much of what may not have been an error at all. Rather it was just a use of one of the other parts of the name.

aa5874

Who called Tiberius the Emperor Cladius?

We have books about the Emperors of Rome. Suetonius wrote about 12 Emperors and he did NOT call Tiberius the Emperor Claudius . Josephus and Philo wrote about Tiberius and did not call him the Emperor Claudius.

Justin Martyr wrote BEFORE "Irenaeus" and claimed that Jesus was crucified by Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.

In gLuke Jesus was baptized by John around the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius

In Josephus, Pilate was a governor for Tiberius and FADUS was a governor for Cladius.

"Irenaeus" mentioned Justin, gLuke and Josehus in his writings.


To make your point of any value you MUST SHOW that in antiquity people frequently called Tiberius the Emperor Cladius or that people claimed Pilate was a governor of the Emperor Cladius.

But, your grave chronological ERROR is that you seem not to understand that calling Tiberius by any other name does not alter the time of his DEATH.

Call Tiberius whatever you like. He died at around 37 CE but "Irenaeus" did not know or could not COUNT. His Jesus still could NOT be fifty years old once Tiberius died at around 37 CE.

Irenaeus was a FAKE BISHOP and WRITER.

darstec

Seriously, you haven't read Suetonius, Josephus nor Tacitus, in full recently, have you? Otherwise you would have noticed that both people whom we call Tiberius and Claudius have several interchangeable names. Suetonius in his The Lives of the Twelve Caesars specifically mentions that both Tiberius and Claudius come from the family Claudii. Suetonius never says Emperor Claudius nor Emperor Tiberius.

Tacitus refers to Tiberius as Tiberius Claudius Nero Caesar and to Claudius once as Tiberias Claudius.

I haven't check Josephus yet. But it is easy to see a second or third century writer might get things confused.

Personally I don't think Irenaeus wrote in the second century. I'm not really sure he existed. I'm not saying you are wrong that IF he meant Claudius and Pilate rather than Tiberius and Pilate that he wasn't up on history. But then I think he wrote nothing but fiction anyway. If in fact he wrote anything and wasn't a figment of Eusebius' imagination.

The only mention of Jesus' birth in Irenaeus' works is that he said Jesus was born around the 41 year of Augustus' reign. Julius Caesar was assassinated in 44 BCE so if he is considered having taken reign that year or shortly thereafter the Irenaeus' Jesus must have been born in 2 or 3 BCE, too early to have died under Tiberius' Pilate if he was about 50 years old. But it was within the reign of Claudius.

Is there any evidence that Irenaeus read Latin? Hos books were as far as we know originally written in Greek.