King Rat

So Jesus' forgiveness cannot be known/verified in any way, and Jesus' forgiveness has no affect on the physical world?

This seems remarkably similar to non-existance to me.

This is also remarkably similar to powerlessness to me.

phoenixgirl

Obviously not all Christians swallow the whole forgiveness of heinous crimes just because you're a Christian thing, but those that do really scare me.

My Young Life leader from high school was just charged with molesting at least ten (count them, ten) teenaged boys over the last eight years. The number was only seven when he was first charged, but more victims came forward, and there are surely more that haven't.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/n...al/8148549.htm

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/n...al/8157408.htm

I emailed an acquaintance from high school (whom I actually find very grating -- this guy has contacted me a handful of times since high school, and every single time has been to ask for money to support him in dubious missions or for the contact information of somebody who probably lost touch with him on purpose, but anyway) who had totally worshipped our old leader. I was actually kind of worried he might have been a victim. His response was along the lines of "Well, at first I was mad, but then I remembered that God views my sins just as bad, like all those times when I curse or don't share the gospel with somebody. In God's eyes that's just as bad as John's molesting. So if John has repented, I'm going to support him." This was peppered with verses and such.

Say what? Yes, I know the old "all sin is sin" argument from my Christian days, and how a person who can swim fifty miles is still going to drown crossing an ocean just like a person who can swim one, but saying a colorful word is victimless. Sure, maybe somebody was offended when you let an f-bomb slip, but you didn't have your hand his pants, so I'm sure the damage done wasn't as bad.

It's just sad that some people really take their illogical beliefs and run with them. Have you ever noticed that lots and lots and lots of convicts turn to Christianity, and yet recidivism rates remain constant? Hmmm, so we've got two alternatives before us: one, that Jesus Christ really saves, and it's just the sinful nature of these poor convicts that keeps them turning back to crime even after they've been "born again," OR, repeat offenders realize that the only people dumb enough to give them the time of day are those with the aforementioned beliefs about forgiveness of sins.

My fiance's mother recently divorced his father and her husband of thirty-two years to marry her "prison ministry" pen-pal, convicted of wrongful imprisonment and battery (rape charges dropped in a plea bargain). Has he been rehabilitated? Hmmm, well the first time he was released, he violated his ex-girlfriend's restraining order against him and broke into her home immediately, so they put him back in. Then my fiance's mother married him BEFORE he had been released the second time, with no proof other than his own words that he was a changed man. He's only been out a couple of months, so time will tell. We're just hoping it doesn't end in violence towards his mother, who has always been a little nutty, but now seems to have gone off the deep end (all the while praising Jesus and claiming this is God's will).

When my fiance, still a Christian who thinks that other Christians should behave in a responsible manner, complained to the church leaders about the lack of supervision of this "ministry," they responded, "Oh, this is only the third time this has happened." Then he contacted the head of the whole ministry, who was unbelievably rude to him (ah, the fruits of the spirit abound).

The idea that people think they're really changing lives of career criminals is so ludicrous. These men know how to con, and the pool of people willing to give them a chance diminishes with each conviction. So the Christians step in and make things worse. It's so sad. The world would be better off without these types of "ministries" and these views of forgiveness.

seebs

No obvious one.

So? Your consciousness cannot be known or verified, and has no effect on the material world; I am assured of this by materialists who tell me that there is no consciousness.

Well, it would seems that way, yes. You're denying the frame of reference in which the effect happens.

If you don't believe that other people can be meaningfully happy or sad, then you will consider your own actions to be powerless over the happiness or sadness of other people.

But it hardly matters what you see. The forgiveness obviously made an emotional difference to the guy who believes he's forgiven, and it's between him and Jesus whether or not that matters. What is likely to matter to you is if, at some point, you do something for which you feel you need forgiveness. At that point, it won't matter whether anyone else thinks you are forgiven; what will matter is your own view on the matter.

Some things are personal.

King Rat

I've heard a con can spot another con a mile away.

Mageth

What about the woman that Jesus stopped the crowd from stoning, when under Hebrew Law they were right, even obligated, to do so?

King Rat

You seem to be assenting to this material view. You seem to agree that Jesus has no power over the material world (reality).

Please hip me to this 'frame of reference.'

I don't understand what you are saying here.

So Jesus' forgiveness is subjective?

And also they seem to be imaginary, subjective, and nonsensical.

seebs

Someone in another thread recently pointed out that, if the story is factually correct, they actually couldn't. There are several requirements, and among them are that the witnesses must be present and willing to testify, and willing indeed to begin the execution.

So, in this interpretation, it goes like this: A woman is caught in the act of adultery. (Note that, presumably, there was a man involved; he, too, should have been on the hook for the death penalty.) Jesus is brought to rule. Now... If Jesus doesn't condemn her, He's violated the Hebrew Law... But if He does, then He's violated Roman law, and will get in trouble.

So, Jesus, being fairly clever, falls back on the specifics of the law, which is that there must be at least two witnesses present and willing to accuse her... Which there aren't. In which case, she essentially got off on a technicality.

Very interesting. I'm not sure how seriously I take it, but I find it a very interesting interpretation of the story.

seebs

No. I say that to exercise the power suggested would abrogate free will, which I think is clearly unacceptable. It may also be inappropriate for other reasons. It is not clear at all that the forgiveness of sins should change the length of a prison term; no reason for which it should has been offered.

I cannot honestly imagine that there is any point; you've preemptively rejected all non-material questions as irrelevant.

No; merely not the business of anyone but those forgiven. The theory is that it is an objective reality whose full impact becomes clear later.

That's possible, but it's hardly proven, or even strongly supported.

If it makes you happy, we can say that these things don't exist for you. That, however, is purely subjective, personal, imaginary, and nonsensical... But you have adopted a worldview which produces specific outputs, so you get those outputs. This isn't even an argument; it's just a tautology.

If you reject all non-material things, then you find that things whose effects are spiritual "don't exist" for your purposes. Very good. So what?

King Rat

I haven't done any such thing. I just haven't seen anything that verifies the stories you believe in and are telling, and you cannot verify the stories you believe in and are telling.

You also seem to admit that Jesus has no power over the physical world (reality) and his forgiveness closely resembles, well, nothing. If Jesus' forgiveness means nothing in reality, why should I care about his forgiveness?

I'm excited by the prospect of this existence outside of reality that you keep referring to, you just haven't convinced me that it exists.

Mageth

First, it was obviously not the "woman at the well" story I was referring to. It was the woman brought to Jesus by the scribes and pharisees in John 8.

Second, the words of the scribes and pharisees in verses 5 and 6 make it seem that they had sufficient evidence to carry out the execution according to Mosaic Law.

Third, it's unclear whether Roman Law would have been violated by stoning the woman. Perhaps it would; verse 6 lends some support to this claim. But one would think Jesus would defer to Mosaic Law over Roman Law in any case. And, in any case, Jesus clearly forgave the woman's sin without administering, or requiring, any punishment for her transgressions.

Fourth, no mention is made of the man or men in the case, so it's not much use speculating on their punishment or non-punishment. We simply don't know.

Fifth, the reason there were no men (or women) to accuse her appears to be because they all left.

But it is an interesting, and plausible, interpretation. But still, Jesus clearly forgave the woman's sin without administering, or requiring, any punishment for her transgressions.