Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Javaman · 11-07-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Satan has considerable power as displayed in Job.

Such as the power to come and go in the kingdom of heaven at will, apparently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

That power could easily include the ability to take an animal and make it talk (maybe he is a ventriloquist).

Sounds like you believe in a non-biblical reading of Satan as a bad guy who was allowed to not only keep his superpowers but to rule another kingdom. Also, though you use the word 'could', you then think it makes sense for a God to allow this same entity free reign in paradise. So, a couple of questions (assuming you think the serpent was Satan or an agent of Satan):

- Did God know Satan (or his agent) was in the garden?
- Did God know Satan's temptation would sway Eve?
- Did God know all of this before Creation and do it all anyway knowing the outcome?

David Vestal · 11-07-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

This need not imply that the serpent was the mastermind but only that the serpent was a very suitable animal for Satan (the true mastermind) to use.

That makes no sense. If Satan can speak through an animal, that's obviously a supernatural power. It's nonsensical that he would find it easier to speak through a snake than, say, a parrot, a cat, a monkey, or a giraffe. When read as a just-so story, with the snake as villain (perhaps suggested by their sinister demeanor), it makes perfect sense.

FFT · 11-07-2005, 07:00 PM

My interpretation of the serpent in Genesis is quite simple: it is an explanation as to why this animal, for all intents and purposes a reptile, has no legs. It is quite similar, in this manner, to every other mythology. For instance, the story of Arachne in Greek mythology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John. A Broussard

Yes, that "could be argued," but why bother? The Christian god reserves the right to punish innocent people as well as innocent serpents.

Because omnipotence means never having to say you're sorry.

Derec · 11-07-2005, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Vestal

That makes no sense. If Satan can speak through an animal, that's obviously a supernatural power. It's nonsensical that he would find it easier to speak through a snake than, say, a parrot, a cat, a monkey, or a giraffe. When read as a just-so story, with the snake as villain (perhaps suggested by their sinister demeanor), it makes perfect sense.

What also makes perfect sense is the so-called "Protoevangelion" (Gensesis 3:15):

Quote:

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Far from being foreshadowing of the gospel narrative, it describes the "relationship" between humans and snakes as is common for just-so stories.

Derec

Diogenes the Cynic · 11-07-2005, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

If we take the story to encompass events that were observed and observable by Adam who then recorded that which he saw, then we get that which we read.

The problem is that we already know for a fact that the story is fiction. There was no Adam. The story is just a variation on a Sumerian creation myth and the serpent is nothing but a talking snake. Satan in the Hebrew Bible (and in Judaism) is not an evil anti-god but just an obedient angel who has no connection whatever with the serpent in Genesis. There was no concept of a "devil" at the time the story was written. Satan as devil is a Christian invention and any Christian interpretation of the serpent as Satan is simply wrong. The New Testament is basically useless as a tool to inform us about the OT because its authors completely twisted and reinterpreted Hebrew scripture to fit their new religion.

And FYI, the Epistles of Peter weren't written by Peter.

John A. Broussard · 11-07-2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I agree.

What follows is what you agreed with:

Quote:

The Christian god reserves the right to punish innocent people as well as innocent serpents.

If the Christian god wants to turn virgin girls over to the Israelite warriors for later rape at leisure, that's just the way the Christian god works.

The big mistake non-Christians make in discussing the Christian god (as you have pointed out many times) is to think of that god as being bound by any moral code.

The Christian god has done, is doing and will do as it pleases.

Essentially, then, you are saying that human concepts of morality don't apply to your god.

It's just part of god's nature when god tortures people, kills babies and encourages soldiers to rape virgin girls.

Am I reading you correctly?

John A. Broussard · 11-07-2005, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

No serpent observable today has the power to reason and talk in a human language.

Satan has considerable power as displayed in Job. That power could easily include the ability to take an animal and make it talk (maybe he is a ventriloquist).

Right!

No serpent observable today has the power to reason and talk in a human language.

But then, no serpent observable today has Satan speaking for (or through) it.

I do kind of like your notion that Satan was pulling a ventriloquist act, however. It fooled not only Eve, but also god who cursed the serpent even though it was nothing but an innocent bystander.

pharoah · 11-08-2005, 03:36 AM

Here are two verses in the NT that have always preplexed me:

Jude 1:6 (NIV)
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

2 Peter 2 (NIV)
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

Presumably the angels being referred to here are Satan and the fallen angels that supposedly rebelled against God, now referred to as demons by Christians. Now if these demons are bound in chains, how can they also be presently here on earth wreakng havoc, let alone present in the Garden of Eden?

rhutchin · 11-08-2005, 04:07 AM

Quote:

rhutchin
That power could easily include the ability to take an animal and make it talk (maybe he is a ventriloquist).

Javaman
Sounds like you believe in a non-biblical reading of Satan as a bad guy who was allowed to not only keep his superpowers but to rule another kingdom. Also, though you use the word 'could', you then think it makes sense for a God to allow this same entity free reign in paradise. So, a couple of questions (assuming you think the serpent was Satan or an agent of Satan):

- Did God know Satan (or his agent) was in the garden?
- Did God know Satan's temptation would sway Eve?
- Did God know all of this before Creation and do it all anyway knowing the outcome?

Given that one of the attributes of God is that He is omniscient, the answers to your questions can only be yes.

rhutchin · 11-08-2005, 04:11 AM

Quote:

rhutchin
This need not imply that the serpent was the mastermind but only that the serpent was a very suitable animal for Satan (the true mastermind) to use.

David Vestal
That makes no sense. If Satan can speak through an animal, that's obviously a supernatural power. It's nonsensical that he would find it easier to speak through a snake than, say, a parrot, a cat, a monkey, or a giraffe. When read as a just-so story, with the snake as villain (perhaps suggested by their sinister demeanor), it makes perfect sense.

The decision to use the serpent would seem to be made on a variety of factors in addition to the ease of doing so. It could have been based on the serpent being “more subtil than any beast of the field.�?

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11-08-2005, 03:36 AM	#28
pharoah Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,729	Here are two verses in the NT that have always preplexed me: Jude 1:6 (NIV) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 2 Peter 2 (NIV) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; Presumably the angels being referred to here are Satan and the fallen angels that supposedly rebelled against God, now referred to as demons by Christians. Now if these demons are bound in chains, how can they also be presently here on earth wreakng havoc, let alone present in the Garden of Eden?

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