jackrabbit

How many churches just feed the hungry and don't bash them over the head with jeebus while they are doing it? It's not really benevolent if there is a hidden agenda.
In what way do you "help" heal the sick? Do you have a medical degree?

jackrabbit

Okay, I did. Found this:

I said no religious sites. Do you understand the word "independent"? Of course such sites are going to claim that the nasty godless heathens don't do anything worthwhile, just as they claim that you can't have morals without jeebus.

Some people have morals without being threatened into it. People who behave morally only because they fear hell are no different from those who obey laws only because they fear prison.

cydonia

Oh man, that was great. I needed that. Time for some bible study to look up those verses.

For some reason that last sentence doesn't show up on the main post but I agree 100%. All my life I've thought christians had a monopoly on being decent people. You should treat people well because it's the right thing to do, pure and simple. I don't know WHY it's the right thing to do, the christian response would be my conscious is created by Jesus, but someone who knows more than me about evolution may say it somehow ensures the survival of the species. Either way it just feels right to be decent. And christianity did not invent this concept, "love your neighbor" is not copyrighted by the Bible.

I am ashamed to admit I don't feed the homeless (maybe I should) or heal the sick myself, but I genuinely do try to treat people with respect and kindness, in spite of my non-belief.

tonan22

You mean how christians willfully ignore passages such as the ones listed in the letter? Why do you think that is? What is the christian motive for suppressing such barbaric commandments?

RUmike

Well the passages listed in the letter can all be found in the first five books of the OT. But the letters of Paul teach that Christians are not bound by the Torah anymore. According to Paul's theology, people are now justified before God by faith (which to Paul was trust in the saving power of Jesus Christ and his ability and willingness to draw people to him in love), NOT by the Law (the Torah). He believed the Law was created only to make people aware of their sinful nature, and it had no saving power or ability to make one righteous before God.

So why people cite passages from the Torah is beyond me since it is no longer binding for Christians. I don't mean this towards the letter-writer, I mean this towards people who cite Leviticus to demonstrate that homosexuality is an abomination (or whatever it says).

Interestingly, Bert Ehrman mentioned on a radio show recently that the ancients had no concept of sexual orientation, that is, gay versus straight. Instead the practice of "lying with a man" was illegal, but only because when having sex, the man on the receiving position was now in the position of a woman, and that's the only reason it was so bad. Only the man receiving the sex was punished if caught, not the man giving it.

jackrabbit

Then why is it even included in the bible, if it doesn't matter a rat's ass?

Mageth

Heh. Just a personal anecdote of my "heavy lifting" experience, and I'm not saying this to boast, but nonetheless:

I, an atheist and "secular humanist", attend church with my wife (never mind why; it's not important). We meet in a school cafeteria here in Austin.

After Katrina/Rita, the school gymnasium was used as a shelter for "refugees". One Sunday morning, some of them attended the service. The pastor mentioned that the shelter needed various items for the people they were serving (specifically fruit).

Well, after the service, I went to the shelter and asked them what they really needed. Turns out it was socks, shoes, underwear, and t-shirts, from child to adult sizes, both for men and women. Many children didn't even have shoes or socks. So I went to the local Target (twice) and bought two shopping carts full of the needed items. Spent around $700, and most of the afternoon, doing so.

How many of the "Christians" from the church did the same? How many showed up at the shelter after church? How many contributed money? How many delivered fruit?

None, to my knowledge. I certainly didn't see any. Not even the pastor (I called him and he said he had some "activity" he had to attend. I also asked the pastor if the Church would be interested in contributing to the cost; to this day I haven't seen a penny from them. And you know what? I don't care; the money's not important to me.).

Of all of the Christians in the church, only my wife participated (and I initiated the action and did most of the "heavy lifting", not her. She, of course, appreciated my concern, but was a bit concerned over the money I'd spent!)

Now, as I said, that's simply a personal anecdote. I'm sure lots of Christians contributed to the relief efforts in various ways.

But the allegation that (most or all) atheists aren't charitable, that any given atheist may be at least as if not more charitable than many Christians, is demonstrably false.

Charitable people are charitable, and uncharitable people are uncharitable, in spite of their personal beliefs.

tonan22

Doesn't matter if that's true or not. christians willfully ignore uncomfortable NT passages just as stubbornly as OT passages.

mata leao

well mageth, if there is no real diff. then between believers and non believers then why are you here? are you here to "shame" christians into doing even more than they already do? why do you fight christianity so hard? of all the evils in the world you coulda/shoulda/would be fighting right now if you werent here bitching about christianity....that is???? please explain logically???

John A. Broussard

Why should anyone bitch about pogroms, about religious wars, about the Crusades, about Bloody Mary (and Bloody Elizabeth). Why all this ranting against the religion that gave us the Inquisition and witch trials?

Christianity is a blessing which reveals the horrors of homosexuality, scientific advances, family planning and much else for the purpose of changing our laws to conform with morality.

Yes, indeed, we owe much to Christianity.