Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Thomas II · 07-20-2005, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little John

So what you're saying is that in this verse is evidence that Paul was Gnostic? Where Yahweh = Demiurge and Jesus = the good god who frees mankind from the Demiurge?
Or are you saying that Paul advocated a form of Dystheism?

I am going with whatever Johnny is saying about this...He presented the idea and I think that he is on to something with a lot of significance, a lot of implications...

Thomas II · 07-20-2005, 09:32 AM

Johnny,
Is this we are talking about connected in any way with the thought of Satan as the "ruler of this world", the association of the material world-sex-satan?

Thomas II · 07-20-2005, 09:44 AM

"...seated itself in the place of god but it's not god"...
"Seated" means "taken possesion,control"...
"in the place of god" means "in our consciousness"...

Johnny Skeptic · 07-20-2005, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

This morning when I read your post I initially posted back the superficial thought about 11:14-15...Then I thought...Wait a minute...Johnny HAS to mean something more than that...THEN it hit me...BAM!...I have been thinking something similar for so long!!...I kept looking at this character "YHWH" and kept thinking..."hmmm...this ain't good...this is some twisted elemental..."

My thought about it is that this elemental is NOT god...
It looks like it has seated itself in the place of god but it ain't god... That is the way it looks to me now...
The story of Job also presents a situation where evil seems to be teaming with god...

I want to hear more about what you got to say about this because I think that you are on to something...

Okay, here is what happened. I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years after becoming one when I was 20 years old. I gave up religion about 7 years ago because I finally realized that there is no logical correlation that can be made between love and the God of the Bible. The Bubonic Plague and the recent tsunami in Asia are evidence enough of that. Even in the New Testament, God did not give up his murderous ways when he killed Ananias and Saphira. It is no accident that it concerned Ananias and Saphira not giving promised money to the Church. The texts say that as a result of the deaths of Ananias and Saphira fear spread to surrounding areas. Fear of what? Obviously, failing to give money to the Church. Paul told the Corinthians that they were doing things that even the Gentiles didn't do, but he still called them brothers. Surely such awful things were as bad or worse that what Ananias and Saphira did.

So, that eventually led to my interest in attacking the goodness of God based upon 2nd Corinthains 11:14-15. As I said in another post, if both God and Satan exist, it would be impossible for Christians to tell who is who, and that includes Paul. The proof of this is that since God has no interest whatsoever in clearly showing himself to everyone, and no interest in preventing plagues and tsunamis, there is no reason for Christians to assume that he is any more interested in proving who is who.

Thomas II · 07-20-2005, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Okay, here is what happened. I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years after becoming one when I was 20 years old. I gave up religion about 7 years ago because I finally realized that there is no logical correlation that can be made between love and the God of the Bible. The Bubonic Plague and the recent tsunami in Asia are evidence enough of that. Even in the New Testament, God did not give up his murderous ways when he killed Ananias and Saphira. It is no accident that it concerned Ananias and Saphira not giving promised money to the Church. The texts say that as a result of the deaths of Ananias and Saphira fear spread to surrounding areas. Fear of what? Obviously, failing to give money to the Church. Paul told the Corinthians that they were doing things that even the Gentiles didn't do, but he still called them brothers. Surely such awful things were as bad or worse that what Ananias and Saphira did.

So, that eventually led to my interest in attacking the goodness of God based upon 2nd Corinthains 11:14-15. As I said in another post, if both God and Satan exist, it would be impossible for Christians to tell who is who, and that includes Paul. The proof of this is that since God has no interest whatsoever in clearly showing himself to everyone, and no interest in preventing plagues and tsunamis, there is no reason for Christians to assume that he is any more interested in proving who is who.

I could not agree more.
I went looking, and I found this. Tell me what you think:
www.messiah.org/rev5.htm

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-20-2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

I am going with whatever Johnny is saying about this...He presented the idea and I think that he is on to something with a lot of significance, a lot of implications...

Okay... I'm a little slow.

The quote form Johnny I identified with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS

The problem for Christians is that if both God and Satan exist, it is impossible for anyone to tell who is who. The Bible writers are responsible for this. They depict a God who allows plagues, tsunamis and other awful things to occur. They also depict a God who is not in the least bit interested in clearly showing himself to everyone. Such being the case, why should any Christian conclude that God is any more interested in proving who is who than he is in preventing plagues and tsunamis and clearly showing himself to everyone?

I know that this was one of the problems I had with Christian thinking. If we are susceptible to deception on a scale that it looks like god then one can never really know for sure where one is at in relation to god. What really hammered this into my mind was Jesus' comment about those who call him "Lord Lord," etc. These people did all the things that would show them to be true disciples yet Christ disowns them. It was frustrating given all the sects in Christianity.

Sorry for being anecdotal...

andrewcriddle · 07-20-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Was it Marcion?

Marcion apparently believed that the God of the OT, the world creator, was just but vengeful and without mercy. (Compared to the Good and merciful God who was the Father of Christ.)

Gnostics such as the Sethians as represented in works such as the Apocryphon of John from Nag Hammadi regarded the God of the OT and world creator as positively evil.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic · 07-20-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Marcion apparently believed that the God of the OT, the world creator, was just but vengeful and without mercy. (Compared to the Good and merciful God who was the Father of Christ.)

Gnostics such as the Sethians as represented in works such as the Apocryphon of John from Nag Hammadi regarded the God of the OT and world creator as positively evil.

What evidence is there to the contrary?

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07-20-2005, 09:32 AM	#12
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	Johnny, Is this we are talking about connected in any way with the thought of Satan as the "ruler of this world", the association of the material world-sex-satan?

07-20-2005, 09:44 AM	#13
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	"...seated itself in the place of god but it's not god"... "Seated" means "taken possesion,control"... "in the place of god" means "in our consciousness"...

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