spin

Is this like Jimmy Jones was a xian?


spin

capnkirk

Your Xtian forebearers, as proto-orthodoxy was becoming orthodoxy, thought so little of the HB, that they came within a hair's breadth of not including it in the canon...so even in the 3rd & 4th c CE, there were a significant faction of proto-orthodox Xtian leaders that didn't share your heartfelt "inheritance rights".

You are presuming that the "messianic" jews were Xtian Jews because you are defining messiah in the Xtian (i.e. Pauline) context. Most messianic Jews, even those that followed Jesus followed an exclusively human Jesus that was a claimant to the throne of David in the "imminent" apocalyptic kingdom. These messianic Jews in fact denied Xtian claims that "the Christ" was the prophesied messiah.

Once again, I point out that Xtian claims to the intellectual property of the HB has been vigorously OPPOSED by Jews from the beginning. So, IMHO, Xtians had/have no more rights to the HB than the 19th century champions of "manifest destiny" had to the lands of native American Indians. But since in both cases they had the 'might' to enforce their will, they succeeding in just taking it.

judge

No I am referring to jewish people who look to Jesus as the messiah.
There are many of them,

What do you have to say? You seem stumped by this.

Will you dare to suggest these people are not real jews?

Can you explain why you appear to think you speak for these people?
Did they ask you to speak for them?

judge

Well I don't doubt this is true. LOL

But my point is this is really about messianic jews today. This is lot easier to deal with as wehave far more detailed knowledge of them.

Spin thinks he speaks for jews. LOL
He may well reflect the ideas of some jews. But he pickes and chooses those who back up his claim and ignores those who disagree with him.
Nt very convincing.:boohoo:

capnkirk

Stand by to arm phasers...lock on...fire!

I not only am not stumped by this; I have already answered you!I am saying that yes, they were Jews...but NO they were NOT Xtians in any recognizable sense of the word.

capnkirk

The views of contemporary Jews is no more germane to whether Xtians "appropriated" the HB than is the opinion of contemporary native Americans concerning whether 19th century European Americans under the guise of manifest destiny "appropriated" Indian lands.

That you can find contemporary Jews that agree with you doesn't change what happened two millenia ago. There were individual Jews back then that became Xtians, even some like Philo of Alexandria who tried to harmonize the two religions. But their arguments didn't seem to persuade the general Jewish populace, as evidenced by the fact that they failed to convert "in droves".

That is not to say that Judaism hadn't done the same thing to other religions' intellectual property without guilt, as in their appropriation of Sumerian creation and flood myths, Zoroastrian concepts of an afterlife where the injustices of this world are rewarded/punished, and of a personified principle of evil (Satan). It is a fact that all of the world's "great religions" has done so. Spin's point seems to be that Xtians are too self-righteous to admit that they have too.

judge

I think you are replying to my post to Spin here.
That smiley hurt too!
where did you ge it?

Amaleq13

That isn't a very good way to write history is it?

Very good for myths though.





Added later:

Since I switched from BC/AD to BCE/CE, I might as well be consistent and make the switch from OT to HB. To avoid the confusion capnkirk mentions, I will use the full name (Hebrew Bible) the first time.

judge

Well Luke for example does deliberately pinpoint when his account took place.
Some people may have faith that they know Luke to be wrong about these things. But this is 2000 years after the event.

Paul was just writing letters as was James and Peter. They were never intended to be historical documents

spin

You may think that I think I speak for Jews, but you are kidding yourself.

Plain wrong. As usual. You think it's fine for a few Jews being "Jews for Jesus" (a nice conflict of interest) justifying the misappropriation of something that is a heritage for all Jews. I haven't been talking about the simple use of the Hebrew bible by xians, but the pretence of it being a xian document, a second-class one at that. This is a typical xian act. In Rome there are a number of churches built over Mithraeums to show their dominance over that religion. The possession of the HB by the xians is an even more complex domination. A few Jews can't squander the heritage of the culture. This has been a purely xian act about which a few Jews might collaborate, like Lord Haw-haw.

The nt doesn't comment on the intellectual theft and debasement of the Jewish literature. But it is a later institutionalization.


spin