Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pilate · 09-23-2005, 04:03 PM

Request:
1. Does any of you know if there is a Christiant fundamentalist Dictionary which gives a brief definition of Angel, which says that "angels do not carry their own agenda" ?
2. Do you have any ancient written evidence linking the Gospel of John to the Gnostics. (please provide source: book)
3. Do you have any early written evidence (1st to early 2nd century CE) mentioning the dogmatic conflict between Paul and Peter? Or the dogmatic conflict between the Hellenist Christians and the Jewish Christians? (please quote source: book)
These questions may lead to discussions, if you like.

Chris Weimer · 09-23-2005, 04:09 PM

For number 3 would Galatians work? Also, Jerome and Eusebius come to mind, but that would be too late for you.

Pilate · 09-23-2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

For number 3 would Galatians work? Also, Jerome and Eusebius come to mind, but that would be too late for you.

Thank you Chris,
but how about some extra-biblical sources, like early NT apocryphal books or early chruch fathers ... "airing the dirty laundry of Christianity!"

Chris Weimer · 09-23-2005, 04:29 PM

How about this?

Toto · 09-23-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilate

Request:
1. Does any of you know if there is a Christian fundamentalist Dictionary which gives a brief definition of Angel, which says that "angels do not carry their own agenda" ?

This definintion seems familiar. Angels are messengers of god, not independent spirits, unless of course they are bad angels and rebel. :devil1: Here is the closest I can find with a quick search:

CARM

Quote:

Angel

Angel means messenger. Angels are created (Psalm 148:2,5; Col. 1:16), non-human, spirit beings (Heb. 1:14). They are immortal (Luke 20:36), innumerable (Heb. 12:22), invisible (Num. 22:22-31), sexless (Matt. 22:30), and do the will of God (Psalm 103:20). These angels have a ministry to believers. They guide (Gen. 24:7, 40), protect (Psalm 34:7), and comfort (Acts 27:2, 24).

There are good angels (Gen. 28:12; Psalm 91:11) and bad angels (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6). The only angels mentioned by name are Gabriel (Dan. 8:16; 9:21 ), Michael (Dan. 10:13,21; 112:1), and Lucifer (Luke 10:18). Michael is always mentioned in the context of battle (Dan. 10:13) and Gabriel as a messenger (Luke 1:26). Of course, Lucifer, who became Satan, is the one who opposes God.

Angels were originally created for the purpose of serving and carrying out the will of God. The fallen angels rebelled and became evil angels. Satan is such an angel (Isaiah 14:12-16; Ezekiel 28:12-15).

Quote:

2. Do you have any ancient written evidence linking the Gospel of John to the Gnostics. (please provide source: book)

From Peter Kirby's earlychristianwritings

Quote:

. . . the earliest known usage of John is among Gnostic circles. These include the Naassene Fragment quoted by Hippolytus Ref. 5.7.2-9 (c. 120-140), the Valentinian texts cited in Clement of Alexandria's Excerpta ex Theodotou (c. 140-160), a Valentinian Exposition to the Prologue of the Gospel of John quoted in Irenaeus' Adv. Haer. 1.8.5-6 (c. 140-160), and the commentary of Heracleon on John (c. 150-180, quoted in Origen's own commentary).

Quote:

3. Do you have any early written evidence (1st to early 2nd century CE) mentioning the dogmatic conflict between Paul and Peter? Or the dogmatic conflict between the Hellenist Christians and the Jewish Christians? (please quote source: book)
These questions may lead to discussions, if you like.

Paul is absent from most early histories, but there are stories of a conflict between Peter and Simon Magus. There are historians who speculate that Paul was in fact Simon Magus, although the early church cleaned him up and made him a proper apostle. I don't know how early these are.

andrewcriddle · 09-24-2005, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Paul is absent from most early histories, but there are stories of a conflict between Peter and Simon Magus. There are historians who speculate that Paul was in fact Simon Magus, although the early church cleaned him up and made him a proper apostle. I don't know how early these are.

The connection between Paul and Simon Magus is found in the pseudo-Clementine writings (the Homilies and Recognitions)

These are fourth century works but probably go back to an (early ?) third century original.

It is unlikely they preserve any authentic history.

Andrew Criddle

Pilate · 09-25-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The connection between Paul and Simon Magus is found in the pseudo-Clementine writings (the Homilies and Recognitions)

These are fourth century works but probably go back to an (early ?) third century original.

It is unlikely they preserve any authentic history.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks Toto And Andrew for the info :thumbs:

Pilate · 09-26-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

From Peter Kirby's earlychristianwritings

Quote:
. . . the earliest known usage of John is among Gnostic circles. These include the Naassene Fragment quoted by Hippolytus Ref. 5.7.2-9 (c. 120-140),

Toto I went there and I did not see anything about the Gospel of John
here is the link http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050105.htm
Do you see anything?

Also, I saw nothing about the gospel of John in: "the Valentinian texts cited in Clement of Alexandria's Excerpta ex Theodotou (c. 140-160), "
Here is the link:http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...theodotus.html
Do you see anything?

Toto · 09-27-2005, 12:41 AM

You might do better to ask Peter Kirby.

Naasene fragment - some scholar has concluded that the document depended on the gospel of John.

Quote:

The authors of this document described by Hippolytus seem to have depended on the Gospel of John.

For Theodotus, search for "gospel" and you see:

Quote:

And in the Gospel "the babe leapt" as a living thing.

Quote:

as in the Gospel, Eli, Eli, instead of my God, my God.

andrewcriddle · 09-27-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilate

Also, I saw nothing about the gospel of John in: "the Valentinian texts cited in Clement of Alexandria's Excerpta ex Theodotou (c. 140-160), "
Here is the link:http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...theodotus.html
Do you see anything?

The problem is that what is available on the web as 'Extracts from Theodotus' is really a separate work more accurately called 'Selections from the Prophetic Scriptures' or 'Prophetic Eclogues'.

The genuine 'Extracts from Theodotus' is not available on the web and is very difficult to access offline as well.

It clearly does refer to John's gospel eg section 6 says

Quote:

The verse, "In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God" the Valentinians understand thus, for they say that the "beginning" is the "Only Begotten" and that he is also called God, as also in the verses which immediately follow it explains that he is God, for it says, "The Only-Begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him." Now they say that the Logos in the beginning, that is to say in the Only-Begotten, in the Mind and the Truth, indicates the Christ, the Logos and the Life. Wherefore he also appropriately calls God him who is in God, the Mind. "That which came into being in him," the Logos, "was Life," the Companion. Therefore the Lord also says, "I am the Life. "

(FWIW I have prepared and proofread a scanned version of 'Extracts from Theodotus', which seems to be out of American copyright, and am attempting to find a suitable website to agree to host it.)

Andrew Criddle

09-23-2005, 04:03 PM	#1
Pilate Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: California Posts: 156	Knowledge wanted Request: 1. Does any of you know if there is a Christiant fundamentalist Dictionary which gives a brief definition of Angel, which says that "angels do not carry their own agenda" ? 2. Do you have any ancient written evidence linking the Gospel of John to the Gnostics. (please provide source: book) 3. Do you have any early written evidence (1st to early 2nd century CE) mentioning the dogmatic conflict between Paul and Peter? Or the dogmatic conflict between the Hellenist Christians and the Jewish Christians? (please quote source: book) These questions may lead to discussions, if you like.

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09-23-2005, 04:09 PM	#2
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	For number 3 would Galatians work? Also, Jerome and Eusebius come to mind, but that would be too late for you.

09-23-2005, 04:29 PM	#4
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	How about this?

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