Ben C Smith

I think this is spot-on. The messiah is the anointed one. In the Hebrew scriptures somebody could be anointed to be king or to be priest. As son of David, the messiah would obviously fall most naturally into the former category.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I do not understand this chronology.

I agree that coming from the field is easily read as meaning that he was coming in from work, but I doubt your last assumption is sound. I doubt he would have been paid one red cent for his trouble.

Calgary?

I think this detail, as several others from Mark, argues for the Johannine chronology, in which Jesus eats a last supper, but not a Passover meal, then is crucified on the day before the Passover began (at dusk, as you mentioned).

Ben.

gstafleu

And whence do you think that came? To me it looks like you have found a closer (in time and place) link to that tradition.
Literalism is difficult. As M151 points out, the kingship referred to is the messiah. That means that, depending on your point of view, Jesus either was or was not a "king." The passage in Mark reflects that by placing him in both roles simultaneously. That is, afaik, a very normal literary and poetic device, isn't it? Or perhaps a historian would like his texts to mean only one thing at a time ? If so, is religious history really the best field in which to find that?

Gerard Stafleu

Ben C Smith

Not I. Crossan.

But that is the point I am making. Yes, of course this royal mockery has precedents and parallels in other cultures; I am not attacking an anthropology of religion. But there is no reason to think that Mark had anything that went on in India or Ethiopia in mind when he composed this passage. There are parallels right to hand that better explain the episode.

(And I am not prejudging whether these parallels explain the episode as history or as invention. It could be that Mark has ripped off this topos, either directly from Philo or indirectly through the culture; or it could be that the Carabbas incident shows that this kind of thing was not all that uncommon historically, and it happened to Jesus, too.)

Both roles? What two roles are you talking about? King is one; what is the other?

Ben.

gstafleu

Agreed.
fake king--in case you didn't believe he was the Messiah. Or in case you were Jesus himself in the ironic existentialist interpretation of Mark.

Gerard Stafleu

Ben C Smith

Okay, so to return to your original statement:

So... Mark brings in Simon of Cyrene in order both to tag Jesus as king and also to tag Jesus as fake king. Whichever the reader prefers. Either way. Mark is not the picky sort.

I am not ashamed to admit that I find this rationale a teensy weensy bit strained.

Ben.

gstafleu

Well, that's one way of putting it! Somehow I'm not all that sure if your Literature teacher would give you high marks for that summary .

Consider the whole sequence, from the point of view of "is Jesus king or not?" Lets start at "'Are you the king of the Jews?' asked Pilate." Jesus gives a non-committal answer: "It is as you say." This could be a "yes," but it is not unambiguously clear, so we start from a point of uncertainty. Then Pilatus brings up Barnabas. Aha, you only do that for a king, so obviously Jesus is one. Except that the people set Barnabas free and send Jesus off to be killed--someone didn't get the memo. Rats, so Jesus is not king after all. Good, if he is not king we can do the king-for-a-day bit on him, so the soldiers give him a robe and a crown of thorns. Clearly, Jesus is not a king! Oh, wait a minute, Simon now takes his place, but that only works if Jesus is a king. Fine, he is a king, so they put a sign up on the cross clearly stating that: "THE KING OF THE JEWS." Then the king dies, exclaiming "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Not all that kingly a way to go, really. Plus, kings were not supposed to die, but their substitute. So... was he or wasn't he?

Not a bad bit of literature, I'd say.

Gerard Stafleu

S.C.Carlson

I'm not sure about inscriptions, formal or informal, per se, but the lunate sigma is common enough in first century Greek papyri.

Stephen

S.C.Carlson

After all that beating he took that day, he wanted to find the hockey game.

Stephen

gstafleu

As a note to my above post, I use as Jesus answer to Pilate "It is as you say." That is a not unusual translation, but too positive. The Greek is συ λεγεις, which simply means "you say." This is more ambiguous than "it is as you say."

Gerard Stafleu