Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-11-2012, 11:33 PM

More quotes about substance in Irenaeus:

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Now we have washed away, not the substance of our body, nor the image of our [primary] formation, but the former vain conversation [AH 5.11.2]

But if it had been necessary for Him to draw the material [of His body] from another substance, the Father would at the beginning have moulded the material [of flesh] from a different substance [than from what He actually did] [AH 5.14.2]

If, then, any one allege that in this respect the flesh of the Lord was different from ours, because it indeed did not commit sin, neither was deceit found in His soul, while we, on the other hand, are sinners, he says what is the fact. But if he pretends that the, Lord possessed another substance of flesh, the sayings respecting reconciliation will not agree with that man. For that thing is reconciled which had formerly been in enmity. Now, if the Lord had taken flesh from another substance, He would not, by so doing, have reconciled that one to God which had become inimical through transgression. [AH 4.14.3]

If then, after death, our bodies return to any other substance, it follows that from it also they have their substance. But if it be into this very [earth], it is manifest that it was also from it that man's frame was created; as also the Lord clearly showed, when from this very substance He formed eyes for the man [to whom He gave sight]. And thus was the hand of God plainly shown forth, by which Adam was fashioned, and we too have been formed; and since there is one and the same Father, whose voice from the beginning even to the end is present with His handiwork, and the substance from which we were formed is plainly declared through the Gospel, we should therefore not seek after another Father besides Him, nor [look for] another substance from which we have been formed, besides what was mentioned beforehand, and shown forth by the Lord; nor another hand of God besides that which, from the beginning even to the end, forms us and prepares us for life, and is present with His handiwork, and perfects it after the image and likeness of God. [AH 5.16.1]

And such or so important a dispensation He did not bring about by means of the creations of others, but by His own; neither by those things which were created out of ignorance and defect, but by those which had their substance from the wisdom and power of His Father. [AH 5.18.1]

stephan huller · 02-11-2012, 11:39 PM

In Proof of the Apostolic Preaching:

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Whence then is the substance of the first-formed (man)? From the Will and the Wisdom of God, and from the virgin earth [32]

So then the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord, and the Father is God and the Son is God; for that which is begotten of God is God. And so in the substance and power of His being there is shown forth one God; but there is also according to the economy of our redemption both Son and Father. [47]

stephan huller · 02-11-2012, 11:59 PM

http://books.google.com/books?id=H99...20yesh&f=false

stephan huller · 02-12-2012, 12:04 AM

In the Zohar - "Come and see: When the truly virtuous engage in Torah, all those potencies of other nations and all their forces are overturned and no longer rule the world — and yesh manifests upon them, raising them above all."[http://books.google.com/books?id=siZ...em%22&f=false]

stephan huller · 02-12-2012, 12:20 AM

In Philo's De Somnis, the Alexandrian Jew seems to know something about yesh (= being, wealth) in Deut 28:16 in his explanation of the previous line:

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And it is the greatest of all advantages to a soul engaged in labours and contests, to have for its fellow traveller, God, who penetrates everywhere. "For behold," says God, "I am with Thee."{#ge 28:15.} Of what then can we be in need while we have for our wealth Thee, who art the only true and real riches, who keepest us in the road which leads to virtue in all its different divisions? For it is not one portion only of the rational life which conducts to justice and to all other virtue, but the parts are infinite in number, from which those who desire to arrive at virtue can set out. Very admirably therefore is it said in the scripture: "I will lead thee back to this land." For it was fitting that the reason should remain with itself, and should not depart to the outward sense. And if it has departed, then the next best thing is for it to return back again. And perhaps also a doctrine bearing on the immortality of the soul is figuratively intimated by this expression. For the soul, having left the region of heaven, as was mentioned a little while before, came to the body as a foreign country. (179 - 181)

Notice also that Yonge and every other editor acknowledges that a large chunk of text was removed from the subsequent discussion involving yesh:

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"For," says the scripture, "Jacob awoke and said, Surely the Lord is in this place, and I knew it not;" and it would have been better, I should have said; not to know it, than to fancy that God existed in any place, he whom himself contains all things in a circle. Very naturally, therefore, was Jacob afraid, and said in a spirit of admiration, "how dreadful is this Place."{ge 28:16.) For, in truth, of all the topics or places in natural philosophy, the most formidable is that in which it is inquired where the living God is, and whether in short he is in any place at all. Since some persons affirm that everything which exists occupies some place or other, and others assign each thing a different place, either in the world or out of the world, in some space between the different bodies of the universe. Others again affirm that the uncreated God resembles no created being whatever, but that he is superior to everything, so that the very swiftest conception is outstripped by him, and confesses that it is very far inferior to the comprehension of him; (1.185) wherefore it speedily cries out, This is not what I expected, because the Lord is in the place; for he surrounds everything, but in truth and reason he is not surrounded by anything. And this thing which is demonstrated and visible, this world perceptible by the outward senses, is nothing else but the house of God, the abode of one of the powers of the true God, in accordance with which he is good; (1.186) and he calls this world an abode, and he has also pronounced it with great truth to be the gate of heaven. Now, what does this mean? We cannot comprehend the world which consists of various species, in that which is fashioned in accordance with the divine regulations, appreciable only by the intellect, in any other manner than by making a migration upwards from this other world perceptible by the outward senses and visible; (1.187) for it is not possible either to perceive any other existing being which is incorporeal, without deriving our principles of judgment from bodies. For while they are quiet, their place is perceived, and when they are in motion we judge of their time; but the points, and the lines, and the superficies, and in short the boundaries. [...]{46}{there is an hiatus here, which cannot be filled up satisfactorily. The whole of the rest of the chapter is pronounced by Mangey to be obscure and corrupt, and almost unintelligible.} as of a garment wrapped externally around it. (1.188) According to analogy, therefore, the knowledge of the world appreciable by the intellect is attained to by means of our knowledge of that which is perceptible by the outward senses, which is as it were a gate to the other. For as men who wish to see cities enter in through the gates, so also they who wish to comprehend the invisible world are conducted in their search by the appearance of the visible one. And the world of that essence which is only open to the intellect without any visible appearance or figure whatever, and which exists only in the archetypal idea which exists in the mind, which is fashioned according to its appearance, will be brought on without any shade; all the walls, and all the gates which could impede its progress being removed, so that it is not looked at through any other medium, but by itself, putting forth a beauty which is susceptible of no change, presenting an indescribable and exquisite spectacle.

stephan huller · 02-12-2012, 08:05 AM

Again in Philo De Somnis:

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Now those which are purely white (dialeukoi) are the most beautiful and the most conspicuous: the word dia being often prefixed in composition by way of adding force to the word, so that the words diadeµlon and diaseµmion are commonly used to signify what is very conspicuous (deµlon) and very remarkable (episeµmon); (1.202) therefore the meaning here is that the first-born offspring of the soul which has received the sacred seed, is purely white; being like light in which there is no obscurity, and like the most brilliant radiance: like the unclouded beam which might proceed from the rays of the sun in fine weather at mid-day. [De Somnis 201]

This struck me as very similar - and likely the basis - to the statement in Irenaeus about the Marcosians where he says:

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For they falsely hold, that the Creator was seen by the prophets. But this passage, "No man shall see God and live," they would interpret as spoken of His greatness unseen and unknown by all; and indeed that these words, "No man shall see God," are spoken concerning the invisible Father, the Maker of the universe, is evident to us all; but that they are not used concerning that Bythus whom they conjure into existence, but concerning the Creator (and He is the invisible God), shall be shown as we proceed. They maintain that Daniel also set forth the same thing when he begged of the angels explanations of the parables, as being himself ignorant of them. But the angel, hiding from him the great mystery of Bythus, said unto him, "Go thy way quickly, Daniel, for these sayings are closed up until those who have understanding do understand them, and those who are white be made white." Moreover, they vaunt themselves as being the white and the men of good understanding. [AH1.19.2]

'White' can mean 'light' and 'men of good understanding' = 'gnostic' (it is a term used by kabbalists to describe themselves). The Marcosians also take a deep interest in the letter episemon; the term is referenced as 'very remarkable' in Philo.

stephan huller · 02-12-2012, 08:34 AM

Hippolytus mentions the Naasene interpretation of Genesis 28:

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In regard, however, of his ascension, that is his regeneration, that he may become spiritual, not carnal, the Scripture, he says, speaks (thus): "Open the gates, ye who are your rulers; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in," that is a wonder of wonders. "For who," he says, "is this King of glory? A worm, and not a man; a reproach of man, and an outcast of the people; himself is the King of glory, and powerful in war."

And by war he means the war that is in the body, because its frame has been made out of hostile elements; as it has been written, he says, "Remember the conflict that exists in the body." Jacob, he says, saw this entrance and this gate in his journey into Mesopotamia, that is, when from a child he was now becoming a youth and a man; that is, (the entrance and gate) were made known unto him as he journeyed into Mesopotamia. But Mesopotamia, he says, is the current of the great ocean flowing from the midst of the Perfect Man; and he was astonished at the celestial gate, exclaiming, "How terrible is this place! it is nought else than the house of God, and this the gate of heaven." On account of this, he says, Jesus uses the words, "I am the true gate." Now he who makes these statements is, he says, the Perfect Man that is imaged from the unportrayable one from above. The Perfect Man therefore cannot, he says, be saved, unless, entering in through this gate, he be born again. [Philosophumena 5.8]

stephan huller · 02-12-2012, 10:05 AM

Clement on Jacob's vision of the yesh:

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Ὁ Ἰακὼβ ἐκάθευδεν χαμαὶ καὶ λίθος αὐτῷ προσκεφάλαιον ἦν· τότε καὶ τὴν ὄψιν τὴν ὑπὲρ ἄνθρωπον ἰδεῖν κατηξίωται

But why speak of these? Jacob slept on the ground, and a stone served him for a pillow; and then was he counted worthy to behold the vision--that was above man. [Paed 2.9]

stephan huller · 02-12-2012, 10:20 AM

Tertullian Against Marcion 3:24:

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When Jacob sees in his dream the steps of a ladder set upon the earth, and reaching to heaven, with angels ascending and descending thereon, and the Lord standing above, we shall without hesitation venture to suppose, that by this ladder the Lord has in judgment appointed that the way to heaven is shown to men, whereby some may attain to it, and others fall therefrom. For why, as soon as he awoke out of his sleep, and shook through a dread of the spot, does he fall to an interpretation of his dream? He exclaims, "How terrible is this place!" And then adds, "This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven!" For he had seen Christ the Lord, the temple of God, and also the gate by whom heaven is entered. Now surely he would not have mentioned the gate of heaven, if heaven is not entered in the dispensation of the Creator. But there is now a gate provided by Christ, which admits and conducts to glory.

stephan huller · 02-12-2012, 04:05 PM

I found what is so far the clearest proof that the heretical understanding of Jesus as yesh. In Genesis 28 Jacob apparently comes into contact with a God he previously hadn't known existed before - hence the declaration in Philo De Plantatione:

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Inasmuch, therefore, as he is a ruler, he has both powers, that, namely, of doing good, and that of doing harm; regulating his conduct on the principle of requiting him who has done anything. But inasmuch as he is a benefactor, he is inclined only to one of these two courses, namely, to do good. (88) And it would be the greatest possible advantage to the soul no longer to feel any doubt about the power of the King for both purposes, but steadily to emancipate itself from the fear, which is suspended over it, on account of the vastness of his authority, and to kindle and keep alive a most firm hope of the acquisition and enjoyment of blessings arising from his being beneficent by deliberate intention. (89) Now the expression, "everlasting God," is equivalent to, God who bestows gifts, not sometimes giving and sometimes not, but always and incessantly; it is equivalent to, God who does good uninterruptedly; to God who, without intermission, is connecting a flow of benefits, coming one after the other; God, who pours forth blessings upon blessings, who is made up of mercies connected and united; God, who never omits any single opportunity of doing good ... This also Jacob, the practiser of virtue, asked at the end of his most holy prayers. For he said, "And the Lord shall be to me as God." (Gen 28:21) Which is equivalent to: He will no longer display towards me the despotic power of his absolute authority, but rather the beneficent influence of his universally propitious and saving power, utterly removing the fear with which he is regarded as a master, and filling the soul with affection and benevolence as felt towards a benefactor. (Plant 89 - 91)

This is a most astounding re-interpretation of Genesis 28 but is completely in accord with the Medieval kabbalistic tradition. In other words, the god that Jacob met the future site of the altar at Mount Gerizim was not the vengeful Lord but the merciful Theos who is elsewhere described as 'the god Chrestos.' The Marcionite 'good God.'

Here is the LXX:

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And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and said, The Lord is in this place, and I knew it not. And he was afraid, and said, How fearful is this place! this is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. And Jacob rose up in the morning, and took the stone he [had] laid there by his head, and he set it up [as] a pillar, and poured oil on the top of it. And he called the name of that place, the House of God; and the name of the city before was Ulam-luz. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If the Lord God will be with me, and guard me throughout on this journey, on which I am going, and give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, and bring me back in safety to the house of my father, then shall the Lord be for a God to me. And this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be to me a house of God; and of all whatsoever thou shalt give me, I will tithe a tenth for thee.

In other words, Jacob has now for the first time run into Yesus (= Yesh) the god Chrestos (= theos). One would expect however that the reading would be "God is in this place and I knew it not." Strange.

Clement of Alexandria's development of Philo's ideas within Christianity:

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It is in your power not to be a son of disobedience, but to pass from darkness to life, and lending your ear to wisdom, to be the legal slave of God, in the first instance, and then to become a faithful servant, fearing the Lord God. And if one ascend higher, he is enrolled among the sons. But when "charity covers the multitude of sins," by the consummation of the blessed hope, then may we welcome him as one who has been enriched in love, and received into the elect adoption, which is called the beloved of God, while he chants the prayer, saying, "Let the Lord be my God." The beneficent action of the law, the apostle showed in the passage relating to the Jews, writing thus: "Behold, thou art called a Jew and restest in the law, and makest thy boast in God, and knowest the will of God, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law, and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, who hast the form of knowledge and of truth in the law." For it is admitted that such is the power of the law, although those whose conduct is not according to the law, make a false pretence, as if they lived in the law.

"Blessed is the man that hath found wisdom, and the mortal who has seen understanding; for out of its mouth," manifestly Wisdom's, "proceeds righteousness, and it bears law and mercy on its tongue." For both the law and the Gospel are the energy of one Lord, who is "the power and wisdom of God;" and the terror which the law begets is merciful and in order to salvation. "Let not alms, and faith, and truth fail thee, but hang them around thy neck." In the same way as Paul, prophecy upbraids the people with not understanding the law. "Destruction and misery are in their ways, and the way of peace have they not known." "There is no fear of God before their eyes." "Professing themselves wise, they became fools." "And we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully." "Desiring to be teachers of the law, they understand," says the apostle, "neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and a good conscience, and faith unfeigned." [Strom 1.27.172]

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02-11-2012, 11:59 PM	#253
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	http://books.google.com/books?id=H99...20yesh&f=false

02-12-2012, 12:04 AM	#254
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	In the Zohar - "Come and see: When the truly virtuous engage in Torah, all those potencies of other nations and all their forces are overturned and no longer rule the world — and yesh manifests upon them, raising them above all."[http://books.google.com/books?id=siZ...em%22&f=false]

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