Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jayrok · 01-13-2009, 12:00 PM

Richard Carrier's Blog was posted in the Jesus Project thread and in it he addresses a few comments regarding methodology he uses in his new book and wants the project to consider. In one comment he addresses a poster that points to scholars who believe Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet (i.e. Ehrman).

In one of his posts he states:

Quote:

Moreover, Daniel was an apocalyptic prophet judging by the book of Daniel, yet we know that book is complete fiction. Thus, finding evidence that the character of Jesus in the Gospels was an apocalyptic prophet is no more a guarantee of his historicity than it is of Daniel's.

And that's where I think the major faultline is here: Ehrmann et al. aren't taking seriously the findings of such scholars as Helms and Brodie, whose work in combination proves the Gospels to be deliberate fiction.

1. Helms and Brodie prove the Gospels were deliberate fiction? I was wondering if there was a thread here on the board that discusses these works and how they prove the Gospels were meant to be fiction. (?)

2. How do we know that the book of Daniel is complete fiction?

Thanks in advance,

Jay

Toto · 01-13-2009, 12:59 PM

I assume Carrier is referring to Randall Helms, Gospel Fictions (or via: amazon.co.uk) and The Crucial Bridge: The Elijah-Elisha Narrative As an Interpretive Synthesis of Genesis-Kings and a Literary Model of the Gospels (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Thomas L. Brodie. (The latter is also on Google Books.)

A former regular here, Michael Turton, has a website analyzing gMark verse by verse, tracing the basis of Mark in the Hebrew Scriptures. You can probably find some threads here on that - his screen name was Vorkosigan.

The idea that the gospels are primarily fictional is not all that radical. The question for historians is whether there is a historical core to the gospels - if you can remove the obvious references to the Scriptures, the miraculous stories, what looks like storytelling, and still have something left that you can show is based on a real historical person.

Jayrok · 01-13-2009, 07:51 PM

Thanks, Toto.

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01-13-2009, 12:59 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I assume Carrier is referring to Randall Helms, Gospel Fictions (or via: amazon.co.uk) and The Crucial Bridge: The Elijah-Elisha Narrative As an Interpretive Synthesis of Genesis-Kings and a Literary Model of the Gospels (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Thomas L. Brodie. (The latter is also on Google Books.) A former regular here, Michael Turton, has a website analyzing gMark verse by verse, tracing the basis of Mark in the Hebrew Scriptures. You can probably find some threads here on that - his screen name was Vorkosigan. The idea that the gospels are primarily fictional is not all that radical. The question for historians is whether there is a historical core to the gospels - if you can remove the obvious references to the Scriptures, the miraculous stories, what looks like storytelling, and still have something left that you can show is based on a real historical person.

01-13-2009, 07:51 PM	#3
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	Thanks, Toto.

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