Cubeless Academian

I notice you use the word "discovered" rather than, say, "revealed." This implies that the thetan hypothesis is based on evidence rather than faith or tradition. What lines of evidence lead to the conclusion that the human mind or consciousness is non-physical and immortal? How did Mr. Hubbard come to discover thetans?

whichphilosophy

Well yes it is the word thetan is used because the defintion of Spirit is not the same as in other faiths and religions.

One can only discover because of finding out through observation of the application and the discoveries. Faith cannot provide truth. Tradition ideas withoug questioning would be like following the herd.

He started the studies as far back as 1923 on this into the sprit. His first work as I understand was in 1938 but not published because he had more research to do.

In short through research and discovery (giving credit to numerous others including scientists and others) he then discovered a series of processes to discover one's spiritual identity and their relationship with the physical universe.

Maybe I can answer your question a bit profoundly simple (in my own view and experience) is that if a person becomes aware of themselves as a spiritual being and they are in a different place then stuck in their head, their mind is with them. The mind records everything and lost memory can be retreived, actually quicker than we think.

However the studies and practice of the mind show how it is divided and how we analyse things we see and perceive.

The question is simple enough but finding the answer would (to see why) would involve some reading and forming your own views and observations.

Actually there is a rule in studying courses that neither the course supervisors or other attendees may provide others with answers. They have to find out for themselves. This avoids the misinterpretations by word of mouth.


The body we can say is the vehicle if you like
The mind which consists of pictures.
The "thetan" is the person themselves if you like.

The Thetan utlizes his mind as a control system between themselves and the physical universe

The brain is regarded as a part of the body, rather like the switchboard.

The mind would therefore record the recordings of thoughts, conclusions, decisions, observations,perceptions of the Thetan throughout their existence.

Really to dig further and see why I am saying this it would be best to check this by reading some books and I hope you don't mind me saying without the interpretation from others or verbal answers from others who have read this before. (It's just that with verbal information there can be misinterpretation).

Really psychology etc is at a dead end here for without any concept of evidence of that which animates life it is a practice devoted soley to creating an effect on living forms. In this many would tend to feel there must be more to life than creating effects on it.

In answering the question I may have raised a considerable amount more points to look at. This is why I would advise reading on this. You would see more on the subject (agree or disagree) rather than my own views. ALso I'm not an expert presenter if you like and it would be wrong for you to believe everything I said without seeing how this could at least stack up.

Anyway no problem asking me any questions which I will try to present them in the best way or at least point you to a source.

Cubeless Academian

This doesn't really answer my question. "Through research and discovery" is pretty vague. I'd like to know specifically what experiments or observations led Mr. Hubbard to his conclusion. In short, what facts do thetans explain that are not adequately explained by the theory that the mind is a function of the physical brain?

whichphilosophy

I will have to get you some references to the books that relate to the discovery of the spirit and the mind. It may take a couple of days. I left all my books in the UK in 1994 when I had a sudden assignment in the middle east and though this was just to be 6 months, here I am in China 10 years later.

(I will leave out the "Research and Dicscovery Volumes as there are about ove 20 so far and pretty thick).

I'm not near any local organisations and I checked and saw you are in Korea. I will have to send a couple of e-mails to someone and it could take a couple of days.

There is an "Auditing process" where a person can discover their spiritual identity." To be honest describe it it will sound gibberish unless you can at least read up on it to follow the logic and background.

To quote the definition Exteriorization, exterior: the state of the thetan being outside his body. When this is attained, the person achieves a certainty that he is himself and not his body.

There are processes to do this. ie "AUDITING"

auditing: Scientology counseling, taken from the Latin word audire which means “to hear or listen.�? Auditing is a very unique form of personal counseling which helps an individual look at his own existence and improves his ability to confront what he is and where he is.


It's nothing strange, however. I did this on my second course. Spirit identity seemed to have come packaged with other things like sudden greater awareness of the environment and oneself and better physical health.

However this is just part of the process of a subject in learning about ourselves and the physical universe.

I am not sure if there are any organisations in Korea where you can look at some books but in Japan there are quote a few people set up there and who have done quite a few courses.

If you ever go to Japan, Taiwan or US there should be lots of places. In Taiwan they seem to be quite large and on very good terms with the government (as they are surprisingly in a lot of countries).

However when I was on courses we never discussed our own gains with others. This is because the level of gains varies and someone not gaining so much may think their gains were less.

I know a few people in Japan but have the e-mail address of one person.

Do you ever travel to different countries in your line of work or when on holiday?

Anyway I shall come back on this.

Cubeless Academian

Frankly, I'm not interested in getting involved with the CoS or undergoing auditing, because I think Scientology is BS. You still haven't cited any evidence that would make me reconsider my opinion.

I have a little bit of background. I've read one of Mr. Hubbard's books (Scientology: A History of Man), and I once attended what was billed as a "Scientology worship service" at the CoS in Columbus, Ohio. The service included what they called "group auditing" (no e-meter), and it did indeed come across as gibberish. By the end I was having difficulty suppressing laughter. I mean no disrespect; I'm just being honest about my reaction.

What evidence is there that a person in this state is actually outside of his body?

Yes, I travel a fair bit. But, as I said, I'm not interested in getting involved with CoS or undergoing auditing. If you can give me some evidence that thetans are real, I might be more interested.

whichphilosophy

I didn't want to as I expect you could decide for yourself as you are able to see for yourself. I just want to get a reply to your questions in a few days.

This is very common and expected. In any auditing that's very common. In fact sometimes bursts of almost uncontrollable laughter at certain things. Why not?

If you think this is gibberish, you ain't seen nothing yet.(though they become clear once they are seen in context).


Experiencing it and the benefits from this. However if I try to prove to you last week I was cold as it was windy, I couldn't. However where to find the procedure. I haven't seen any books for years.

However for me to blab about such things doesn't make it real. How could I prove I was feeling cold last week. I couldn't of course.

And to be honest even experiencing this can be unbelieved by the person who does this at first.

The subject is about removing those adverse things in the past that affect our present situation so that we can move forward in a more positive way.

I'll get you the location of where to read about it. The discussion group is not a recruitment forum anyway. I think for reaching a better understanding I suppose and then people can go their own routes.

Regards,

whichphilosophy

I couldn't edit the last post. I'll get the references for the reading materials. I did have some books. I'll get the reading references to the processes that do this.

I could blabber on for hours but that's no use as you would not see the mechanics and nuts and bolts of it.

I nearly had a posting in Korea about 3 years ago but it fell though at the last minute. However I'm having a great time in China working with a state owned company as the only UK employee.

Regards,

Cubeless Academian

Obviously you can't prove to me what you've experienced and what you haven't, but I'm willing to take you at your word. Just tell me: What have you experienced that can be explained by thetans but not by naturalistic theories of the mind?

Can't you just give me the Reader's Digest version? Until you give me some reason to take Scientology and thetans seriously, I'm not interested in spending my time going to a discussion group or flying to Japan to read a book. If you don't want to discuss the evidence here on this board, please tell me and we can end this conversation.

whichphilosophy

Yes very much so.

I'll send you a private message.

On the more lower levels like myself the degree in which this is done varies. For this reason it's not discussed. If one person has a really great experience and another hardly any, though something, they may feel they haven't gained much



I think there are a couple of books Scientology 8-80 and 8-8008. I just need to check which one deals with the thetans abilities. I am just trying to get confirmation. The hard backs are quite expensive, but I don't have these

The reason personal experiences are not discussed is that it ensures the other person can experience solely through their own perceptions.

I can see you are honest but to avoid a danger of one person's experience influencing anothers exectation or what they expect to experience the details are not normally mentioned.

Also someone may experience something great but because they don't experience what another told them they experienced they may just brush it off as a "loss" not a win.

The subject is an applied philosophy which means the knowledge is both by experience and application.

Not meaning to be vague.

One should give the processes.

Infidelettante

Cubless Academian and whichphilosophy, there seems to be less and less you are willing to discuss in public. If this thread can't be accessible to others you might do well to continue it privately.

JT