Toto

This is a very strange analogy. Google <memoirs nazi death camps> and you will find quite a few, from both Jews and Germans.

For writers who might have written about Jesus but are silent, we have the example of Philo, a Jewish author who died after Jesus' putative death, but who did not mention him; and another historian of the time, Justus of Tiberius, made no mention.

Solo

I stand corrected: Frank Zindler is the Director of American Atheists Press.

Jiri

Gamera

I simply meant it might be unflattering from a true-believer's perspective to cast into doubt Jesus's divinity. Indeed, it was the principle issue for early Christians, not Jesus' wisdom or thaumaturgy per se,and certainly not his historicity.

Gamera

My understanding is that by the early middle ages, Christian authorities in fact had a great deal of control over the disapora and had the power to force Jewish scholars to edit rabbinical texts to deal with whatever sensitivities were eating at the Christian communities at the time.

Ben C Smith

How does the Testimonium call his divinity into question? It seems to call his humanity into question (if it be permitted to call him a man).

Ben.

Solo

I am not sure what this debate is about. As Wells pointed out, the shorter Antiquities mention of Jesus uses the wording of Mt 1:16 'Iesous ho legomenos Christos' (Jesus /who is/him that is/ called 'Christ'). Where would that be "unflattering" or "casting doubts" ?

Jiri

Gamera

I was using a translation that employs "so-called."

I don't really know what to make of Josephus' "If" clause: "permitted" by whom? Lawful under what law? I guess I'm happy to see this as a clumsy interpolation by a later Christian scribe. But if Josephus really wrote it, it almost sounds ironic, it's so on the nose.

Further the ending to the passage is odd: "And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." It's a strange counterpoint to suggesting Jesus is divine. It's almost as if Josephus expects them to be extinct, but strangely enough, well, they aren't. If the tenor of the passage is that Jesus was the true messiah, why would he be surprised at the nonextinction of his followers? You'd expect him to say, "And of course, the Christains are growing in numbers because they follow the true messiah." But instead, he damns Christians with faint praise -- "Well, at least they aren't totally exterminated -- no thanks to Jesus!"

A weird ambiguous passage.

Gamera

It can be translated "so-called."

Ben C Smith

But, since legomenos does not have to bear that connotation, it seems reckless to assume it has to mean so-called and then use that assumption to lead to other conclusions.

Another important point is that this word does not appear in the Testimonium; it appears in the James reference.

I do not think the Greek word (χρη) is intended to raise those questions. It is just an impersonal construction. One could just about as easily translate it as if it is appropriate [or necessary] to call him a man.

I am too. But there seem to be other alterations, as well, even if the whole thing is not forged in its entirety.

Ben.

Nazaroo

Of course the original question was concerning Jewish writers, so the fact of 'quite a few German memoirs' is non-sequitous.

And again, 'quite a few' in a democratic post-printing era is what I find to be a strange analogy.

We have no reason to expect 'quite a few' Jewish 1st century historical works, and we don't find them either, with or without Jesus.



'The example of Philo seems apt, but not the 9th century example of "Photius" quoting a 'lost' book of Justis the Galilean. Even if we don't doubt Photius' claim, he is hardly someone in a position to judge the authenticity of a work nine centuries earlier and presumably only known through some copy he found.

Sounds like a very probable case of a forgery. There was no shortage of those, in the 4 centuries after Christ.