Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 04-07-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

LOL!

Where does it say to test god? Especially to scientifically test god? God is supposed to test you, not the other way around.

I am convinced you've never read a word in the bible if you think this!

Gideon tested the Lord, the Bible says ask and you shall receive, the Bible says to try me and prove that I won't do what I say I do. Malachi 3:10 "prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts"

That's not what it says at all. As a matter of fact:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 4:7

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Free Indeed · 04-07-2009, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Gideon tested the Lord, the Bible says ask and you shall receive, the Bible says to try me and prove that I won't do what I say I do. Malachi 3:10 "prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts"

What about Matthew 4:7 "Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test"?

That's tempting the Lord, trying to prove his character, I am proving his promises and word.

show_no_mercy · 04-07-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

No, I don't see a problem. I start with the assumption that the Bible is true and authoritative in all matters then go from there. That is how I interpret evidences and observations. We all have to start somewhere.

It is understandable that a Christian might accept the Bible as true and authoratative in all matters of salvation, or in all matters of theology. I've noticed that many Christians are more nuanced than simply saying "authoritative in all matters". Most Christians don't seam to think that the Bible is trying to be a history book, or a geology book, or such. Personally, I found the below a relatively thoughtful comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

When the Bible speaks of things concerning salvation (salvific), I become very particular about my interpretation and errancy suppositions.

Now, you refuse to entertain the notion that the earth and humans are more than 6,000 years old, ignoring even the vast majority of Christians opinion. Why do you think that the earth is not the center of the universe? It seams that is the simplest understanding from scripture. Why do you not think that the earth is flat since that is also the simplest understanding from scripture? Are you ignoring your Bible, in favor of your reasoning skills? How is this different than considering the earth is billions of years old?

A couple of the many examples:

Matt 4:1-12 The devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"

The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)

"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)

Free Indeed, is this you?:

Quote:

Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word....

Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.

The damned whore Reason....

This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.

To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason.

We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist.

Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason.

So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.

Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, not the earth. So according to the bible, the sun goes around the earth.

Martian Astronomer · 04-07-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

What about Matthew 4:7 "Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test"?

That's tempting the Lord, trying to prove his character, I am proving his promises and word.

I'm sorry, for all of the hemming and hawing that Christians make about taking the bible out of context, your claim takes the passage out of context there.

That passage is from when Jesus is in the wilderness being tempted by Satan. Satan quotes Psalm 91:11-12, which states:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psalm 91

11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

This is not about testing God's character, it's about testing a "promise" from his "word."

Jesus responds to Satan asking him to test God's "promises and his word" by saying "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."

Free Indeed · 04-07-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

No, I don't see a problem. I start with the assumption that the Bible is true and authoritative in all matters then go from there. That is how I interpret evidences and observations. We all have to start somewhere.

It is understandable that a Christian might accept the Bible as true and authoratative in all matters of salvation, or in all matters of theology. I've noticed that many Christians are more nuanced than simply saying "authoritative in all matters". Most Christians don't seam to think that the Bible is trying to be a history book, or a geology book, or such. Personally, I found the below a relatively thoughtful comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdlongmire

When the Bible speaks of things concerning salvation (salvific), I become very particular about my interpretation and errancy suppositions.

Now, you refuse to entertain the notion that the earth and humans are more than 6,000 years old, ignoring even the vast majority of Christians opinion. Why do you think that the earth is not the center of the universe? It seams that is the simplest understanding from scripture. Why do you not think that the earth is flat since that is also the simplest understanding from scripture? Are you ignoring your Bible, in favor of your reasoning skills? How is this different than considering the earth is billions of years old?

A couple of the many examples:

Matt 4:1-12 The devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"

The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)

"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)

Matt4 - a supernatural event. The Devil didn't carry him up to a high mountain, he took him.

Dainel 4 - a vision like it says. When Jesus comes with a shout all of the earth will see him at the same time. How, I don't know.

Job - a figure of speach.

God can speak to us in language we can understand or visualize.

Free Indeed · 04-07-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian Astronomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

That's tempting the Lord, trying to prove his character, I am proving his promises and word.

I'm sorry, for all of the hemming and hawing that Christians make about taking the bible out of context, your claim takes the passage out of context there.

That passage is from when Jesus is in the wilderness being tempted by Satan. Satan quotes Psalm 91:11-12, which states:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psalm 91

11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

This is not about testing God's character, it's about testing a "promise" from his "word."

Jesus responds to Satan asking him to test God's "promises and his word" by saying "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."

The devil was tempting him to sin.

Martian Astronomer · 04-07-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian Astronomer

I'm sorry, for all of the hemming and hawing that Christians make about taking the bible out of context, your claim takes the passage out of context there.

That passage is from when Jesus is in the wilderness being tempted by Satan. Satan quotes Psalm 91:11-12, which states:

This is not about testing God's character, it's about testing a "promise" from his "word."

Jesus responds to Satan asking him to test God's "promises and his word" by saying "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test."

The devil was tempting him to sin.

How!?!?! You just said that the bible tells us to test God's "promises and his word." And, I might add, it also tells us to trust God with our lives. Satan asked Jesus to test one of God's promises. He could have said "No, testing God is okay, but testing him by sinning is bad." Instead he said, "No, testing is bad." You're doing that thing again where you're claiming the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

temporalillusion · 04-07-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Not necessarily. I believe because of faith yes at first, but I have lived my faith for a long time and know that I know that God is real. I've done scientific experiments to prove Him, I've put him to the test which is Biblical.

So God promises that if you seek him first he'll give you the desires of your heart. You desire people here to be saved right?

I'm thinking of a 5 digit number, ask God to reveal that number to you and post it.

The thing is Muslims will claim exactly what you claim, that they've seen evidence of their God in their lives, just like you do.

In reality, all you are experiencing is confirmation bias unfortunately.

Jedi Mind Trick · 04-07-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by temporalillusion

You have to assume?

Do you see how hollow your position is?

No, I don't see a problem. I start with the assumption that the Bible is true and authoritative in all matters then go from there. That is how I interpret evidences and observations. We all have to start somewhere.

Would I be doing responsible science if I started with the assumption that the Mahabharata is true in all matters and then go from there?

funinspace · 04-07-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

It is understandable that a Christian might accept the Bible as true and authoratative in all matters of salvation, or in all matters of theology. I've noticed that many Christians are more nuanced than simply saying "authoritative in all matters". Most Christians don't seam to think that the Bible is trying to be a history book, or a geology book, or such. Personally, I found the below a relatively thoughtful comment:

Now, you refuse to entertain the notion that the earth and humans are more than 6,000 years old, ignoring even the vast majority of Christians opinion. Why do you think that the earth is not the center of the universe? It seams that is the simplest understanding from scripture. Why do you not think that the earth is flat since that is also the simplest understanding from scripture? Are you ignoring your Bible, in favor of your reasoning skills? How is this different than considering the earth is billions of years old?

A couple of the many examples:

Matt 4:1-12 The devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"

The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)

"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)

Matt4 - a supernatural event. The Devil didn't carry him up to a high mountain, he took him.

Dainel 4 - a vision like it says. When Jesus comes with a shout all of the earth will see him at the same time. How, I don't know.

Job - a figure of speach.

God can speak to us in language we can understand or visualize.

LOL...instead of explaining your choices regarding when to go allegorical, you explain away some verses....

So why can't one do what you just did in the above few examples, against the Genesis 7 day creation mythos? Where is the difference?

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