Ben C Smith

Two versions of Romans have been found, with solid patristic evidence of a third. Refer to Harry Gamble, Jr, The Textual History of the Letter to the Romans.

Excellent question, BTW. Glad you asked.

Ben.

aa5874

Can you please give me one verse of Marcion's version of Romans, or any of Marcion's version of any "Pauline" Epistles?

By the way, it would seem that the Church writers, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius did NOT even "know" all the "Pauls". They ALL thought the "Paul" who wrote "Romans" was the same "Paul" who wrote "Timothy".

The Church writers, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius did NOT really know the history of their own Church.

Do you really THINK that Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius knew the true history of Marcion or were they mistaken like they were with "Paul"?

You can use your imagination, now.

dog-on

Tert gives a few verses in his polemic against Marcion. One of those early church fathers even refers to Paul as the apostle of the heretics.

I think that the church fathers, you have mentioned, used the "Fox News" version of Marcion for their own purposes. What the Marcionites actually believed is simply conjecture based on their diatribe.

aa5874

Where can I find that information that Paul was the apostle of the heretics?

"Paul" was NOT EVER called a heretic in Against Heresies by Irenaeus written late 2nd century.

Paul was NOT EVER called a heretic by Eusebius in Church History written early 4th century.

Which Church writer claimed "Paul" was an apostle of the heretics between the time of Irenaeus and Eusebius?

The Marcionites would do such a thing, based on Tertullian.

Casper

Thanks ben, I'll try. I'm new to the Josephus as source concept, and I don't want to get circular, so everyone please feel welcome to restate my thoughts if you feel you can.

Luke 2:41-47 is a unique childhood narrative possibly taken from Josephus biography, and, like the birth narrative, is not present in Marcion (so far as we know).

Luke 9:52-53, and Luke 17:11, are possibly sourced from Antiquities, or that seems to have been a reference used in constructing Luke's geography. These are in gMarcion.

Luke 7:1-10, the story of the centurion, seems a very plausible candidate for using Antiquities asd a source, and it too is present in gMarcion.

I think this points to a pro; the likely Josephus references are present in gMarcion except for the childhood narrative, which, along with the birth narrative, are prime candidates for Marcionite redaction due to the physical vs spiritual Jesus conflict that is often cited for reasons to assume redaction (I'm thinking the party line by the Catholic Encyclopedia, for instance).

It is a weak pro; the missing element is sourced (possibly) from a different work by Josephus. In fact i can see a basis for the argument that gMarcion, or proto-Luke for that matter, if we wish to go there, pre-dates the author's knowledge of Josephus' biography while acknowledging familiarity with Antiquities, while aLuke would have been familiar with both, the biography portion an interpolation by aLuke. I don't want to try and set a date for aLuke between Antiquities and Life of Josephus, because order of writing may not coincide with order of reading by the author, but I suppose it could be explored.

So much for a poor addition to the discussion, but that is where my brain is pointing on the matter.

Ben C Smith

Tertullian, Against Marcion 3.5.4:

Even the very apostle of the heretics [haereticorum apostolus] interprets that law which grants an unmuzzled mouth to the oxen that tread out the corn as concerning not oxen but ourselves, and he affirms that the rock that followed them to provide drink was Christ, in the same way as he instructs the Galatians that the two narratives of the sons of Abraham took their course as an allegory, and advises the Ephesians that what was foretold in the beginning, that a man would leave his father and mother, and that he and his wife would become one flesh, is seen by him to refer to Christ and the church.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Hey, it was well worth a try. And that is the sort of thing we should be doing, the sort of thing that, if it pans out, slowly (sometimes quickly) starts to change the face of the debate. If it could be shown that the Josephan overlaps in Luke-Acts belonged only to parts of the text already marked off as special for some other reason (the Marcionite version, the western version, or what have you), then we might have something to look into.

Ben.

aa5874

So, who is that apostle of the heretics? Marcion or "Paul"?

In Against Marcion by Tertullian, who is referred to as the heretic? Marcion or "Paul"?

In "Against Marcion" by Tertullian, Marcion is introduced as a heretic.

Ben C Smith

Paul.

Ben.

the_cave

Why do you argue that it's taken from Antiquities? Wouldn't the War be the source of this instead?