Transient

I don't think that this thread should ever have been opened in the first place. It was always going to get heated just by the nature of the OP.

spin

The same post that led you to utter this nonsense, I falsified the mountainman conspiracy theory anew. You were not interested, but here it is again:

[T2="w=90%;b=0;p=5;s=0;bdr=1,solid,#000000"]Let's see what he can do with this text POxy_3035: it's a warrant internally dated in 256 CE to arrest "Petosarapin of Horus a Christian". We can imagine, "it was a fake planted by Eusebius to trick the people of Oxyrhynchus." [/T2]

This is a securely dated text that mentions a christian in 256 from Egypt, the third year of the reign of the Roman emperor Valerius and his son Gallienus.

Another example why the mountainman blunder theory is dead in the water.

You can flap all you want, but when it's dead, it is dead, and all the flapping you want will not breathe life back into it.

ETA: Maybe, it'll be, "well, it can't be 'christian' because it's spelled wrong." :constern01:


spin

Sheshbazzar

Why Yes, I do take that position. "This is a securely dated text that mentions a christian?......."
χρησιανόν is not simply an 'early spelling' for the title 'Christian', but is a Greek term independent of the Christian religion with a long history of non-Christian Greek usages of which POxy_3035: is only one.

According to information recently supplied in this Forum by none other than our esteemed Greek scholar Stephan Huller;
From here.

Wereas the many existent Greek forms of χρησιανόν may be employed serve to inform the meaning of the title χρισιανόν 'Christian', the title 'Christian' did not precede or inform the various forms of the preexisting Greek term χρησιανόν. Hence it is improper to simply swap the one, a definite title, for the other, a generic appellative, claiming that the informing 'earlier' term is simply a variant spelling of the proper title 'Christian'.

The warrant was for the arrest of one "Petosarapin of Horus a good man". A common appellative, with nothing of the latter evolved title 'Christian', or of that evolved Christian religion being involved.
Substituting 'Christian' within this context, is not only an imposition but also an unnecessary anachronism.

spin

Precious Shesh, I'm impressed to see you enter clunking into this list. I thought all the jousters had already enrolled.



If you look at an image of the document, the only thing confusing about the word you are trying to examine is that there is a ligature from the top of the iota to the sigma. Once noted we have a simple χριστιανον.


spin

stephan huller

... and where does Shesh get 'a good man' from the form χρησιανόν? Do these people know anything?

avi

I remain confused, despite your excellent reply to shesh.

1. Do you intend to explain that the third symbol, following the obscure second symbol, "rho", is iota, rather than eta (or epsilon?)?

2. To my eye, there exists a smudge of ink or dirt, above that third symbol, for reference. The symbol beneath that smudge, to my untrained brain, is eta.

3. The fourth symbol, which is supposed to represent sigma (?) and iota, is not so easy to decipher.

4. In the next line I observe alpha nu omicron nu. I see no evidence of tau.

chresianon

avi

spin

Assuming an omitted tau and deriving χρηστιανον: (one of those of the) good man.


spin

spin

A iota with a ligature connecting it to a sigma, so that it could vaguely look like an eta, though the eta has two downward strokes that are both concave and a generally rising cross-stroke. For a clear eta look at the letter after ανον.

The rho seems to be deformed. They usually have the long downstroke, but there may be a conventional digraph chi rho.

The iota is the last character of the previous line. It looks like it ends with a tau iota digraph.

As for the sigma tau, look at line 2, επισταταις. (Last three letters -αις are not there, but editorially reconstructed.)

We end up with:

χριστι/ανον

spin

spin

Incidentally, Shesh, while even the Codex Sinaiticus uses the form, who besides christians ever got called chrestians?


spin

Sheshbazzar

The point I was making is that the title 'Christian' is derivative, of the Greek language,
it did not arise in a vacuum and takes it meaning form other, preexisting forms of the Greek.
While you may choose to interpret the word in POxy_3035 as being the title 'Christian', the actual spelling appearing there does not correspond.

spin was already aware that it was "spelled wrong" otherwise he would not have bothered appending his ETA "well, it can't be 'christian' because it's spelled wrong."