stephan huller

Luke on the other hand seems to have been written after Celsus's criticism of the original account of the baptism of Jesus in the Gospel of the Hebrews. For Celsus wrote:

Now Luke presents the story as happening with multitudes of people witnessing the descent of the dove which is the Holy Spirit alongside Jesus:

This is a frequent feature of Luke. He is interested in demonstrating that there were multiple witnesses to things. It is almost as if he knows of two or three gospels and is seeking to straighten out the various discrepancies.

Notice also the addition of 'in bodily form' (perhaps to counter the Marcionites who denied that Jesus ever had a physical form) and notice the missing euthys which appears in all accounts hitherto.

stephan huller

Justin Martyr Dialogue 88:

stephan huller

I wonder whether the 'as a dove' reference was ever there. The earliest gospel reference to the narrative must have been Jerome's Hebrew gospel:

As Ferguson notes "this Gospel contains semitic features like the Holy Spirit as female and as speaking in the manner of the divine wisdom in the Wisdom literature.Its reference to the baptism of Jesus focuses upon the coming of the Spirit." (p. 105) Origen says he saw the text of this gospel in Caesarea. This is probably where Jerome accessed the text. There is no specific reference to 'Jesus' being the man baptized. The ambiguity may have left open the possibility that the one being baptized became Jesus. Also the figure is clearly a prophet (= 'in all the prophets ...).

The next gospel is Epiphanius's Hebrew text which - translated already into Greek - reads:

Here the name 'Jesus' is for the first time specifically attached to the individual being baptized. The reference to the 'dove' now appears too. Epiphanius's text appears to be a loose retelling of Jerome's more original text.

Chili

They were all the same and still are. Just watch the holy rollers on TV to see: that if you zap them one by each, one of them will likely start to yodel and that song is catchy and soon they will all are singing. Just a stage master who knows it is catchy like a disease that he calls 'the good news' that Jesus is coming, but will always be 'still coming' without end.

DCHindley

My painstaking and pre-cise investigation has uncovered the fact that "Doves" are a variety of Pigeons. What, pray tell, are pigeons famous for? Just park under a bridge to find out.

Therefore, the passage really is saying:

"the heavens opened and he [John] saw the Holy Spirit descending like pigeon poop, and entering into him [obviously John, as he stood, face looking up, and his mouth open in awe at this sight]." (Mar 1:10)

Consequently, God makes John a prophet, meaning,

"and a voice came from heaven [through John], "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."" (vs 11)

However, I am of the opinion that he would more likely have said "Huck Pa-tooi!"

DCH

Tommy

Locusts and wild honey sounds like a more balanced long-term diet than cakes and honey. Having said that, were I in John's sandals I would probably have eaten more honey than locusts.

Chili

Be carefull here in that pidgeon flying is an ancient sport. It is popular where I came from, and at that time was about the only reason not to go to Church on Sunday if they were coming in (and maybe that is why it was so popular).

They were banded and would have to catch them inside the coop to remove the band and bring it in to claim their prize.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Pigeon-Flying.

Diogenes the Cynic

If I recall correctly, there was a strain of Samaritan Messianism which conceptualized the Messiah as a new Noah (similar to how other strains viewed the Messiah as a new David, Joshua, Aaron, etc), and that there was about to be a third "cleansing" of the Earth. The first, supposedly was the flood, the second was the wind that knocked down the Tower of Babel and the third was going to be fire.

This would tie in with John the Baptist being portrayed as saying the Holy Spirit would immerse them in fire (the next element after water and wind).

The dove imagery could conceivably tie into that. with Jesus as some sort of allegorical high ground or refuge from the coming "flood" of fire.

stephan huller

I don't know about this strand of Samaritanism

Diogenes the Cynic

I'll dig around and see what I can find. I'm trying to remember where I read about it. I think it may have been in G.R.S. Mead's John the Baptist book, but it may have been one of Geza Vermes' books. I'll have to do some rooting around. It is pretty obscure, but I've always thought the Samaritans were an overlooked and unappreciated subject of research.