S.C.Carlson

I've got my UBS critical text in front of me; it's not an interlinear. Looking at the UBS catalog, the only interlinear UBS list is Greek-French. So what interlinear are you actually using?

Stephen

S.C.Carlson

That's not my translation, however.

JoeWallack

JW:
Well I'm glad to see you here Christ (now if I could only wake up Spin). Stephen is πρώτη Arguer here and Jeff seems obsessed with arguing that I Am not qualified to make this type of Translation determination as opposed to just giving his Translation and the related reasons. God knows why.

At this point I'm not overly interested in mere Opinion because every Translation I'm aware of uses "first". Christ, can you tell us how much you favor "first" over "foremost" and especially Why?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Chris Weimer

Stephen, I really can see it meaning foremost. We must be aware that although English speakers can think of it as foremost, it was still "first" to the Greeks. In essence, this was the first registration. First in time or first in prominence? It's tough to say. I just read your blog post on it.

It seems to be able to go either way for me. What do we know about the censuses of Quirinius? And in particular, what does this have to do with the discrepency between Matthew and Luke?

JoeWallack

JW:
Yea, I mispoke. The UBS is only the Greek. The English is by someone, something, somewhere "The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament".

But now that you have your UBS out could you please give us your Interlinear for 2:1-2. It would really help. Otherwise I fear we are becoming a Pink Panther routine:

Chris: Does your Translation bite?

Stephen: No.

Chris: Ouch! I thought you said your translation doesn't bite?

Stephen: That's not my translation.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Current Inventory of reasons why "foremost" is Unlikely for 2:2:

1) Lexicon = The offending word has a Root and Primary meaning of "First".

- The Secondary meaning of "foremost" is a common one although unlike
"first", it's not always the specific secondary meaning. Obviously by
itself the Lexicon is not determinative of the meaning of a specific
usage but is useful when other determinants are ambiguous.

- Qualification = Jeff Gibson currently disputes that the offending word
does or does not have a Primary meaning. He is currently doing a
meaning count in Koine and Attic (because that's where Stephen's
Primary example is from) and will report the results to us after he is
resurrected.

2) Usage = "Luke" normally uses the word to mean "first".

- Note that in Luke's two uses of "foremost", 15:22 and 19:47, the
construction is a simple combination of adjective next to common noun
which gives the appearance of an idiom.

3) Communication Logic =

"This was the Foremost registration while Quirinius was governor of Syria."

The argument for Translating "foremost" here is "Luke" wanted to distinguish between the Census of Quirinius and the Census Joseph responded to. If this was "Luke's" motivation than using a word with a Primary meaning of "first", with a normal grammatical construction of "first", that the author normally uses to mean "first" would be a very poor choice to describe the Census that you want to Communicate Was Not First!. There are other Greek words to Communicate "most important". And of course what reason could "Luke" possibly have to try and avoid using an Equivocal word here who's primary meaning is the opposite of what "Luke" wished to communicate since it only helps establish the Date of Jesus' birth. I mean it's not like it was an important date or anything.

- This seems to be a reason all by itself to prefer "first" over "foremost".

4) Early Witness Testimony = Understanding of "First".

And the best reason I've seen so far for 2:2 not being "foremost":

5) Resident Professional Greek expert Jeff Gibson has not given one word of support for it.

6) The offending word has a time qualification "was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria." which goes better with a superlative rather than an absolute superlative.

And now, the next problem. "First" is the Simpler, more straight-forward translation as opposed to "foremost". If the other evidence is ambiguous than the Simpler Translation should be Preferred.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Amaleq13

Doesn't Josephus pin the destruction of Jerusalem to the resistance movement(s) resulting from this census?

If we accept Josephus as a source for Luke, the importance of the census is clear and the connection to Jesus would be a contrast.

Chris Weimer

It's very possible, but what does this all mean?

Amaleq13

It seems to offer a reason why Luke's author might characterize the census as "the most prominent" per Stephen's translation.

Chris Weimer

Yeah, but what relevance does that have. I.e., what is this discussion about? I couldn't grasp it from reading over the thread...