Johnny Skeptic

I agree.

Johnny Skeptic

Not at all. Consider the following premises that Christians believe:

1. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.

2. Paul knew the disciples.

3. Paul was acquainted with the over 500 eyewitnesses in Corinth.

4. The disciples and the over 500 eyewitnesses convinced Paul that Jesus made some group post-resurrection appearances.

How likely would it have been for entire groups of people to have seen the same thing, in the same place, at the same time, and to have convinced Paul of what they had seen? Obviously, very unlikely. One person having a hallucination or a vision is one matter, but entire groups of people having the same hallucinations or visions is another matter entirely.

Yes, later Pauline writers, not Paul. Christians believe that Paul believed that Jesus made some post-resurrection group appearances, not that later Pauline writers posing as Paul believed that Jesus made some post-resurrection group appearances. It is what Christians believe that I am discussing.

aa5874

But, you have assumed that there were hallucinations.

Christians did NOT believe the post resurrection sightings of Jesus were hallucinations unless you have already abandoned your premise about the BELIEF of Christian.

Christians did BELIEVE the resurrection was HISTORICAL.

And further premise 3 may be in error. The 500 eyewitnesses were not identified as being in Corinth and in premise 4 there is no indication in the epistles that it was the disciples and the 500 "eyewitnesses" who convinced "Paul" of the resurrection.



But, when did Christians start to believe the resurrection was historical? And when did "Paul" actually believe or write about the resurrection appearances.

What happens if there were no actual Jesus believers BEFORE the Fall of the Temple?

And it would seem that there were many Pauline writers and not a single character called "Paul".

Johnny Skeptic

No, my position is that group hallucinations are out of the question. I did not mean to imply otherwise. Let's start over. The texts say, and imply that Paul knew the disciples, and was acquainted with the over 500 eyewitnesses in Corinth, and that the disciples and the over 500 eyewitnesses convinced Paul to believe that Jesus had made some group appearances to them. How likely is it that the disciples, in groups, were convinced that they had seen Jesus, and that the over 500 eyewitnesses in Corinth, in a group, were convinced that they had seen Jesus? Obviously, very unlikely, which indicates that since those groups of people were not convinced themselves, they would not have tried to convince Paul or anyone else.

The Gospels indicate that virtually no one believed that Jesus would rise from the dead. Even the empty tomb did not convince Peter and Mary Magdalene. With a background like that, how in the world could a good number of people have believed that they had seen Jesus in group settings? Obviously, they couldn't.

The claim that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 doesn't make any sense. The only thing that makes any sense is that later writers posing as Paul were convinced by hearsay evidence that Jesus made some post-resurrection appearances, and that the writers plausibly did not consult with any supposed eyewitnesses who saw Jesus in group settings.

Johnny Skeptic

All of that is interesting, and maybe a historical Jesus did not exist, but for purposes of this thread, my main interest is reasonably establishing that Paul did not write 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.