rhutchin

It seems to be that a higher percentage of women label themselves as Christian.

Reagrdless, God says that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, and Attila the Hun had mercy on whom he wanted to have mercy, so what is your point? Would you be able to love a God who was like Attila the Hun? Attila helped some people, hurt some people, and killed some people, just like the God of the Bible does, although God is much better at killing people than Attila was. Geography limited Attila's ability to kill people, but God is able to kill people all over the world. God once killed one fourth of the people in Europe with the Bubonic Plague, including lots of devout and faithful Christians. He also killed one million Irish people in the Irish Potato Famine. God is easily the most successful mass murderer in history, and easily the most dangerous being in the world. I do not doubt that if Attila had the ability to provide people with eternal life, and send people to hell, he would have played favorites just like the God of the Bible does, in which case you would say that Attila will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. If Attila had had the ability to heal people, he would surely have healed some people, but not everyone, just like the God of the Bible does, with one notable exception; unlike the God of the Bible, he would have healed people who were his faithful followers.

Is it your position that no human who is able to beat up everyone else has the right to rule the world, but that whichever supernatural being just so happens to be able to beat up everyone else, regardless of his character, has the right to rule the universe. If so, would be able to love a God who lies? If not, why not. God frequently kills people. I don't see how lying is any worse than killing people.

Obviously God shows favoritsm towards women, or many Christian women falsely believe that they are among the elect, which leaves women who profess to be Christians wondering and worrying if they are among the women who are among the elect, or many men are among the elect and are not aware of it, in which case that would be quite strange.

Not only does God show favoritism towards who he reveals himself to, but he shows favoritism towards people who live in certain geographic regions. The only lucky people who were among the elect during the first decade after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead were people who lived in close proximity to Palestine, which is just what a rational person would expect if God does not exist.

Please reply to my posts #51 and #69, unless you are afraid to. I have asked you to reply to my post #51 on several occasions.

Regarding 2 Peter 3:9, no decent person would be able to will himself to accept a God who was willing that some people perish, and endorses favoritism.

Is it your position that any Christian who interprets 2 Peter 3:9 like I do will go to hell?

Sauron

Then why did you say:

I have looked at many of the problem passages, but the resolution of the problems usually requires that a person be very intimate with the Hebrew language which I am not.

You clearly stated that a knowledge of Hebrew was required to resolve the problem.

But *NOW* you're trying to say that such is not the case, and you *can* resolve difficulties without a knowledge of Hebrew.

Which one is your actual position?

There are no such examples in Till's list of biblical mistakes.

You ignored the rest of my response to you. Shall I repost it, or do you think you can find it by yourself?

Gamera

I think we've been over this ground, Johnny. But happy to do so again.

First of all, I don't need to "accept" the God of the bible. The structure of the Christian scriptures is that the gospel message needs to be accepted, as an existentielle, a question about who one is. That message being that God's love can transforms us into the loving people we want to be, if we accept that it can transform us. The Jesus narrative is the playing out of the depth of God's love for us. The idea being that God love is like the love a parent has for a child and vice versa, which is something we can all understand, since all of us are either parents or children or both. The kerygma of the gospel is the issue for Christianity, not the "belief" in various theological propositions. Only the most naive of modern Christians think that Christianity is a series of beliefs in propositions about God. Basically, Rudolf Bultman's work took Christianity well beyond that.

Second, I find the God of the Hebrew scriptures totally distinct from the God of the NT, at least in how he is manifested and the purpose of the narrative. The God of Hebrew Scriptures clearly manifests himself in a manner that was understandable to Iron age tribal superstitious people. Basically the message was, you believe in all these false gods, well, I'm the real God, believe in me and I'll make you rich and successful. Fine. That's a tact may have made sense in 500 BC. It made no sense after Jesus. The issue for Jesus was not acceptance of God as the true God, but the nature of that relationship, which Jesus situated in love, not in getting something in order to prove God's voluntarist superiority. The OT is doing something completely different from the NT, and frankly is the OT didn't exist I don't see how it would affect my Christianity in the slightest. Macion, of course, wanted to dump the OT, and maybe he was on to something. Paul basically dumps the OT in any case, since he limits its use to "instruction," presumably meaning moral insights, particularly into the failings of people, which is a central theme of the OT. Most of the protagonists are utter and complete failures.

Finally, I don't care who "rules" the universe and have no way of knowing whether God does. What I care about is the internal transformation promised in the gospels, which is embodied in Paul's wonderful phrase: "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love (i.e., of other people)"

Gamera

Your assumption that the gospel is about "getting to heaven," and hence your analysis that God hasn't done everything to get us there, is wrong from the start.

The gospel asks what kind of person one is, by placing us in relationship to God. The gospel confronts us with a choice: accepting of God's love as a way to transform us into loving persons, or rejecting that love (as nonexistent or ineffectual or irrelevant or whatever).

Thus the gospel is existential in nature. It's about who we are and who we want to be. It's a choice, not a truth statement. Nor does it concern getting to heaven, whatever that means.

So I just don't think your analysis is on point. God hasn't tried to get us to heaven. The gospel has given us a choice, which anybody can accept or reject. There's nothing more for God to do.

Gamera

The NT God promises no material gain from acceptance of the gospel. Indeed Jesus says for accepting the gospel you will only get persecuted (though he does mention that those who accept the gospel will given "houses, family and lands," Mark 10:30, but he is speaking metaphorically of the community that one will obtain, not literally.

The promise is not material but spiritual. Accepting the gospel transforms one into a person capable of loving others and desirous to do so. Hence:

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Galatians 5:13 - For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another.


This isn't empirically verifiable, but I and every Christian I've ever known knows what this internal transformation means.

Sauron

Hmm. Not true. In the OT we find this promise:

And in the NT we find:

So I would say that some promises of basic food, clothing, and providing for one's family have indeed been made.

aa5874

If no-one can verify what you say, then it is useless to claim that you and every Christian know what internal transformation means.

There is nothing worse than self-deception.

Johnny Skeptic

If that is true, that is reason enough for people to reject the God of the Bible. If you have children, do you feel obligated to care about providing them with food, shelter, and clothing? Do you kill babies? God does.

The point is, why are Christians' spiritual/emotional experiences any different from anyone else's spiritual/emotional experiences?

Johnny Skeptic

Your arguments are patently absurd. Compared to eternity, even a personal relationship with God of 100 years in this life is only a speck in time. Some babies die when they are only a few days old.

Hundreds of millions of people died without hearing the Gospel message. They obviously were not aware of the supposed specific existence of the God of the Bible, so what good was the Gospel message for those people? What about people who are mentally incompetent? What kind of relationship do they have with God?

If a relationship with God is the only thing that is important in this life, what if you were quadriplegic, blind, deaf, and in constant pain? Would your relationship with God be sufficient for you to want to live like than for decades, or would you beg God to take your life? The late Vincent Humbert lived in France. He was quadriplegic, blind, and mute. He wanted to die. He asked French President Chirac for an exemption to the French law that prohibits physician assisted suicide. Chirac refused Humbert’s request. An unknown person mercifully killed Humbert according to Humbert’s wishes.

Some of the most loving people in the world are non-Christians. The Bible says that killing is wrong, but it also says that God has killed lots of people, including babies. Even today, God typically kills people with hurricanes. Now please do not tell us that hurricanes create themselves and go wherever they want to go. God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. Many non-Christians have sacrificed their lives for other people. Some non-Christian police officers would risk their lives to save your life. Many non-Christians give money to the poor.

Regarding "Nor does it concern getting to heaven, whatever that means", you obviously are not a Christian. Consider the following Scriptures from the NIV:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?

31 I die every day - I mean that, brothers - just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.

32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."

34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God - I say this to your shame.

35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?"

36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation - but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.

13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs - heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,

2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you,

5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

25 David said about him: "'I saw the Lord always before me. Because he is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.

26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will live in hope,

27 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

Acts 23:6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

29 and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Johnny: Gamera, either you know very little about the Bible, or you do not understand it. Even most liberal Christians hope that they will enjoy a comfortable eternal life. Consider the following:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deat.htm

Religious liberals generally anticipate some form of life after death. Most reject the concept of Hell as a permanent place of punishment and torture for anyone. Some might accept the belief that some form of correction and purification is needed before a person arrives in heaven. But generally, they do not hold exact beliefs concerning the timing, processes involved, or the nature of heaven. They "find more grace in the search for meaning than in absolute certainty; in the questions than in the answers." They tend to be more concerned about the present life than the future. They believe that if they lead an ethical, caring life, that matters will sort themselves out after death.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/heav_hel.htm

Liberal Christians believe that the beliefs of the authors of the Bible evolved greatly over the approximately one millennia years during which the Bible was written. Thus, there is little internal consistency in the Bible about the afterlife. Most liberals remain agnostic on the existence and nature of any form of afterlife.

[Johnny: “Agnostic” means “uncertain”. You said “Nor does it concern getting to heaven, whatever that means.” Obviously, you are not a part of the group of “most liberal”. You are part of a very small group of extremist liberal Christians who do not have any idea whatsoever what the Bible means.]

Skeptics, Humanists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. generally accept that there is no afterlife. After death is personal annihilation. After death, our influence lives on only in our children

Johnny: Well, at least you have something in common with “Skeptics, Humanists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc.”

I much prefer liberal Christians to fundamentalist Christians, but there is no doubt whatsoever that fundamentalist Christians have correctly interpreted what the Bible writers meant. Whichever group of Christians is right, shame on God for not showing up tangibly, in person, and telling Christians which group is right. In addition, shame on God for refusing to clearly tell Christians centuries ago that slavery, colonization, and the subjugation of women are wrong. The lack of tangible, personal appearances by God causes all sorts of subject spiritual/emotional interpretations of the Bible from various groups

Do you believe that Jesus healed sick people, that he physically rose from the dead, and that he was seen by over 500 people?

Are you aware that if you had been taken as a baby to Syria and raised by Muslim parents that you would probably be a Muslim today?

Please be advised that I believe that you are much less of a threat to American society than rhutchin is. I would much rather that all Christians be like you than like rhutchin. Rhutchin is a Calvinist. Calvinists are possibly the most detestable sect of Christianity. One of my attorneys is a liberal Christian. I like him a lot. Believe it or not, my two longtime employees are fundamentalist Christians. They are part of the “faith only” group of Christians.

My main interest is in debating fundamentalist Christians because they typically try to legislate their religious views.