JoeWallack

XTV Guide:
3rd, 6th and 9th hour, Anonymous Title, Anonymous Author. Anonymous Drifter comes to town. Does anything for nothing performing astounding healing miracles Anonymously. Known historical characters try to kill him for it but he escapes. Anonymously. Goes back to where ever the hell it was he came from. Starring Holly C. & East Wood.

The "Light", Cameras, Deeds:

Mark 1: (KJV - adjusted for lying)
1 "It was a dark and stormy night in DenMark and
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ"

JW:
(Whistling), hold it, stop the film! Uh Bede, if "Mark" was an unsophisticated hick from the country who just wanted to tell people that Jesus was The Jewish Messiah then why not give his story some title? Maybe, "Jesus, The Jewish Messiah"? And why not identify himself? And why not write in the first person? And since "Mark" is not giving a title, or author or first person or background like the usual Greco-Roman biography, why not just Start the Gospel with "Jesus Christ The Jewish Messiah" or at least "the son of god".

If the most important thing to "Mark" was ID'ing Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, then why treat it as some Type of Secret at the beginning? Makes it sound like a Play or something where it's up to the audience to figure out who Jesus really is. Maybe like one of those Mysteries Dinners with a two drink minimum.



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.
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Vorkosigan

Edward Hobbs, one of the most highly respected commentators on Mark:

Mark writes with remarkable attention to his wording! He is often accused of writing poor Greek, and/or of woodenly reproducing his sources. On the contrary, IMHO, he builds theme after theme upon careful choice of words, a characteristic which is usually missed. The commonest reason for missing it, I believe, is that most readers today know Mark in their own language (English or whatever), and then when they read Mark in Greek, are constantly "translating" in their minds, missing the distinctive features of his Greek text. One aspect of this arises from the fact that few of us grow up reading the LXX as our OT--we read it in English, and then some of us learn Hebrew and read it in that language, but ignore the OT in the language used by Mark. Hence, we seldom catch the frequent-in-Mark quotations, allusions, and hints of the OT text, all of which are essential to understand his full meaning.

JoeWallack

The WallGan commission going over the McJuder tape once again:

Mark 14: (KJV)
53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.
54 And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.
55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
59 But neither so did their witness agree together.
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.
66 And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:
67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.
68 But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.
69 And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.
70 And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.
71 But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept."

Wallack: Now the "Stone" version at 33 & 1/3:

"And they led Jesus away to the high priest" (Jesus taken by Force)
"And Peter followed him afar off" (Peter taken Voluntarily)

"and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes." (Jesus' audience is Authority)
"and he sat with the servants" (Peter's audience is Servants)

"For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together." (Jesus' witnesses are False)
"they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto." (Peter's witnesses are True)

"And Jesus said, I am." (Jesus defends with the Truth)
"But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak." (Peter defends with a Lie)

"Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Jesus' audience doesn't believe a True defense)
"And when he thought thereon, he wept" (Peter's audience believes a False defense)


Wallack:
Play back Mark 14:66 (KJV)
"And as Peter was beneath in the palace"

Play back Matthew 26:69 (KJV)
"Now Peter sat without in the palace"

Vorkosigan:
"Mark's" use of the historical present in Greek makes it clearer that the Jesus/Peter stories are intended to happen simultaneously. Just like you'd see in a split screen or a Play.

Wallack:
Agreed. Play back Mark 14:72:
"And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept."

Note the implication that the accusers believed Peter and left him alone to cry. Play back Matthew 26:75:

"And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly."

The implication is that Peter was not believed so he had to leave before he could cry. This is more believable historically but lessens the contrast of the Jesus/Peter story. So the little changes, "Mark's" simultaneous stories and consistent contrast in the Jesus/Peter stories are more contrived literature and less plausible historically. The consistent contrast between "Mark's" Jesus and Peter is consistent with "Mark's" theme that everyone failed Jesus. Peter's purpose in "Mark" is not to show a disciple who continued the Jesus movement but on the contrary to show that even Jesus' most trusted disciple and his #1 failed him. Note that in "Mark", unlike "Matthew", this is the last we hear of Peter. The implication is that even Peter realized he had failed Jesus. Permanently. This is why the fraudulent addition of "Mark" 16:9-20 is so significant.

Vorkosigan:
Therefore, the evidence indicates that "Mark" shot JFK (Jesus F. Krist) first and Acted alone without "Matthew" (the second Gospelman theory).

Wallack:
Agreed.



Joseph

Question. An interogative statement used to test knowledge. But that's not important now.

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Vorkosigan

I love that analysis of Peter/Jesus story. Is it yours? Can I steal it for my website?

Vorkosigan

Bede

Vork,

You know better than to simply cite an authority when you slag them off regularly. Your second fallacy in the thread. Besides, as I've said before, almost anyone who spends too long studying Mark starts to imagine all sorts of ficticious signs of literary contrivancy. Both yourself, Hobbs (and Wallack for that matter) are perfect examples of this.

You still have nothing at all except lots of coloured words and an overactive imagination...

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Amaleq13

So Mark is best understood when less time is spent considering the work? Interesting.

Recognizing the legitimacy of new interpretations generally requires imagination. How does one differentiate between an excess of imagination in an interpretation and a deficit on the part of a critic?

Jayhawker Soule

Given that we tend to see what we want to see, I'm curious how you came to know that the interpretation is correct.

Amaleq13

I don't consider "legitimate" to mean "correct". It was only intended to qualify the interpretation as "a reasonable possibility".

I don't think "correct" is an attainable goal and every bit as unreasonable as Bede's dismissal.

JoeWallack

Vorkstein:
I love that analysis of Peter/Jesus story. Is it yours? Can I steal it for my website?

Deep Note (from the shadows):
As Chevy Chase said to Lacy Underalls in the classic "Caddyshack" when she rummaged through his mail and found a summons, Take it. It's yours.

Vorkstein:
Thanks.

Deep Note:
You're missing the big picture though.

Vorkstein:
Huh?

Deep Note:
Why stop at the Jesus/Peter Trial contrast? Why not look at the entire Passion starting with The Preparation (hands Vorkstein photo of the following)

Mark 14: (KJV)
32 "And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."

Now the contrast of Jesus/Peter:

35 "And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him." (Jesus spends his first hour on Watch)
37 "And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?" (Peter spends his first hour Sleeping at my Post)

39 "And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words." (Jesus spends his second hour on Watch)
40 "And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him." (Peter spends his second hour Sleeping)

41 "And he cometh the third time," (Jesus spends his third hour on Watch)
41..."and saith unto them, Sleep on now" (Peter spends his third hour Sleeping)

Should have listened to what Jesus told him three sentences earlier, huh. Note that "Matthew" follows "Mark" closely here but "Luke" drops the Contrived ThreePete.

Vorkstein:
Wait a minute, are you suggesting there is actually a hidden dual Passion contrast of Jesus/Peter?

Deep Note:
That's right. A massive Christian Bible scholarship cover up that goes all the Way up to the heavens. Again, Peter's purpose in "Mark" is to illustrate failure. Earlier, "Mark's" Jesus had said:

33 "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Goodbye Peter Simon. Hello:

Mark 15KJV)
21 "And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross."

Cyrene Simon. For Christ's sake, how much clearer could it be? (Course "Mark" never really worked out the logical problem of if the purpose of Jesus sacrificing his life for you was to prevent you from having to sacrifice your life for Jesus then how come you still had to sacrifice your life for Jesus? Then again, in "Mark's" book not even Jesus was perfect).

When your web site is complete, instead of Christians, they'll be known as Nixtions. All those major NT scholars will not soon forget the name of, the name of, uhm, uh

Vorkstein:
JoeWallack?

Deep Note:
See, it's spreading already! Uh-oh, I think I hear Bede coming. We'll talk about The Arrest next time (as he leaves), "Friends , Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ear".



Joseph

CLERGYMAN, n.
A man who undertakes the management of our spiritual affairs as a method of bettering his temporal ones.

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Vorkosigan

But Joe, the watch/sleep sequence in Gethsemane relates back to the the Watcher Parable in Mark 13, which also lays out the timing of the events.

Yes, I am well aware of the interpretation of Simon=Simon Peter. In fact, 15:21 is the first occurrence of the word "cross" since 8:34, a strong signal that Mark is connecting the two. It might help if you could deconstruct "Cyrene" into a Peter reference somehow.

Yes, the disciples are the Rocky ground into which the seed falls but does not take root. Note the pun on "rock" and also, of course, the supreme Irony of a man named Rock falling apart at the end. Ah Mark. I gotta love him.

Thanks for all the hints, help, and clues.