jjramsey

To follow up on ObiKenobi's post, the idea that one would make up a myth about a man who was also God and suffered and died for humanity's sins isn't the problem. The problem is whether a myth about such a man would be manifest in the form of stories about a first-century Galilean Jew from a podunk town not mentioned in the OT who was crucified a few decades before, and in letters that, together with the previously mentioned stories, implied that the writer of these letters met some of the contemporaries of this man. In other words, it is certain particulars about Jesus, rather than the myth of atonement that pertains to him, that are what decides the issue of historicity.

EarlDoherty

But the debate has not been done to death, Don, simply because you have never directly addressed this particular passage in the Ascension, which contradicts everything you are claiming about the sublunar realm and what can or can't go on in it.

I'll repeat it here, yet again:

Until you deal directly with this passage and its clear implications, especially for the interpretation of the later chapter 9, there is no point in discussing anything else.

My "view about Paul" is an interpretation, based on what we find in the letters, and what background philosophy we can fit it into according to what we can glean from other documents, and one of those documents is the Ascension, which presents a very good fit for my interpretation. You would have to discredit the plain reading of the above passage, and that you have never done. You don't discredit it by simply pointing to views like Ocellus, because Ocellus is compatible with the Ascension, since he (or anyone else) does not render the sublunar realm in a way which precludes it. Writers like Ocellus have provided the broad base; the Ascension provides a specific set of details, at least as interpreted by one circle, an interpretation which Paul and other early Christians could well have shared in, especially given certain similar ideas between them.

And while we have debated over chapter 9, you have not disproven my reading of its picture of the Son's descent into the firmament and his execution there by the demons of that region. That, too, is a perfect fit for my interpretation of Paul.

All the best,
Earl Doherty

gstafleu

Isn't the determination of the exact altitude at which the crucifiction took place incidental to the argument? It seems to me that:

1) JC (or CJ) was an intermediary for God, which is a pretty spiritual thing
2) He was crucified by the Archontes, who are pretty spiritual beings (that he was crucified in a fleshy way seems logical, how else are you going to carry out a crucifiction?)
3) Paul never refers to JC as a human being, nor does he place him in any earthly context

That seems to me enough to establish the spiritual quality of the whole thing. Establishing that JC was crucified eight miles high might be an interesting ornamentation, but by no means essential to the argument.

Doug Shaver

You seem to think it improbable. Why?

Consider what I have observed on human nature in these areas, it seems practically inevitable to me.

GakuseiDon

Hi Earl. This has been discussed before. I know you see Platonic higher-lower world meaning here, but as I've said previously, to talk about higher-lower relationships where the higher are demons is nonsense; and in this case, simply not necessary.

AoI isn't inferring a Platonic relationship here at all. What is happening in the firmament among the demons? Envy. THAT is the likeness of what is happening on the earth.

Let's look at the passages following the ones you give in Ch 7:

9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Sammael and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another.
10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth.
11. And I said unto the angel (who was with me): "(What is this war and) what is this envying?"
12. And he said unto me: "So has it been since this world was made until now, and this war (will continue) till He, whom thou shalt see will come and destroy him."

It is the envying that is happening on both earth and in the firmament. It may actually complement passages in Ch 3, which talks about hatred and jealousy on earth among "shepherds and elders" in the last days, though given the composite nature of the text it is difficult to tell.

I suppose it is possible that I am wrong, though, and the AoI author meant that anything that happens on earth has a likeness in the firmament (including crucifixion -- though in that case, if Christ was crucified in the firmament does that mean he was crucified on earth also?). I just don't see the context supporting it, though I'll leave it up to those more knowledgeable than myself on this. If you want to talk about what kind of activities that demons got up to, then by all means give me the textual support for it (rather than asking me to imagine it). I'm more than happy to start compiling a list of such activities from the literature.

Clivedurdle

Yes, most definitely - IN THE EUCHARIST!

Sven

You got one thing right.

I see that you still refuse to read up on the topic. A good book on this is Carl Sagan's Shadows of forgotten ancestors (or via: amazon.co.uk). Although there were some parts which I found less than convincing, the huge list of references to the primary literature is priceless.

I had a dog which showed clear signs of guilt when it did something wrong. As many other dog-owners can tell you.

I don't see the relevance of the first part to the second. Of course we are not at the "top" of other animals. And our more developped sense of right and wrong in no way puts us at the top. These two facts are completely unconnected.

"as a whole"
Makes your statement nicely flexible, no?
Problem is: I even fail to find a consistent morality in the bible - so I certainly can not agree with it.

I happen to disagree with some of them. And there's of course the other problem of first identifying these 10 commandments.

And we have altruism in other primates as well. Did I mention that you need to read up on this?

I'm actually undecided on this point. Punishments seem to be necessary, but I doubt that they actually work.

Since you excluded large parts of the bible in which we can easily find statements which contradict the above parts, this would be no wonder - if I agreed.

Neither more nor less. It's to be expected.

GakuseiDon

It would depend on what is being argued, and what else the literature says. Believing that demons were higher Platonic forms is EXTREMELY against the beliefs of the time. Could the author of AoI have thought that anyway? Sure! But if there was another possible interpretation that isn't against the beliefs of the time, then that would have to be the stronger preference.

Clivedurdle

I assume we are refering to the concept that we are in a cave, living in the shadows of a firelight, compared with the new dawn. Paul - Glass darkly.

Imagine the world from the eyes of someone two and a half thousand years ago. Technology around - stonehenge 1000 years old. Calendar and ritual definitely there, cities, quite sophisticated warfare and empires.

Newgrange is a fascinating example of what they were able to do with light at dawn of the solstice.

No understanding of how and why there were these regularities and why disasters happen - hypothesise gods doing it. Create heirarchies of gods and demons. Create priests to mediate with the gods and read the entrails - druids used to study how someone they just sacrificed writhed in their death throes as signs and potents to enable them to predict the future.

The mundane world, world as a shadow of the real world is a logical psychological explanation from limited facts of experience, of day and night - read up about the fear experienced every night across the planet by humanity at the setting of the sun and the relief at the new dawn - remember the classic anglican prayers at night time - the lord protect us from the evils of the night stuff.

The shadowland, perfection elsewhere is a logical solution. But demons as platonic forms is only against beliefs because they had gradations, heirarchies. Evil spirits caused evil. Gods need placating, spirits need protecting against through baptism. Demons and platonic perfection are both there - demons have fallen from perfection - that is the direct link you are saying is not there!

Satan was Lucifer the bright and morning star!

Clarice O'C

Great news, Earl. And don't forget to let us know of your new ideas, also.

Best to you,
Clarice
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries/