Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jakejonesiv · 04-23-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

This embodies the whole problem with the mythicists' analysis.

...
In short, mythicists must always ignore details (Jesus had a virgin birth; Dionysos was born out of god's thigh) and use infinitely elastic categories (unusual birth) to construct an allege mythic source.

The Virgin birth of Jesus from an alleged mythic source? Are you kidding?

The Virgin Birth of Jesus is a myth, right??? Whether a person with most of the attributes and deeds of Gospel Jesus existed or not, the miraculous birth of Jesus as described in Matthew and Luke is mythical in nature and origin. So from where did the gospel writers derive this material? Most likely from the myths of the pagan gods, the sons of Zeus. Unless you think it all really happened.

Are you going to say Christians made it all up from the mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14?

Jake Jones IV

Chris Weimer · 04-23-2007, 11:01 PM

Jake,

Gamera was saying that the mythicists use other mythic sources to demonstrate that Jesus himself was purely mythical.

Chris Weimer · 04-23-2007, 11:02 PM

Also, do you think that the Orphic Hymn to Semele presupposes her (quasi-)divinity?

Toto · 04-24-2007, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgibson000

But since they are also aware of the "re-assembly" theme, and since Euripides clearly asserts that Dionysus was not "born" of Semele in 88-99, then the "twice born" epithet is not a reference to his origin from Semele.

And in any case, we are a long way from the sense that GENOMENON EK GUNAIKOS has in Galatians and in its usage (or the usage of cognate phrases) elsewhere in Hellenistic literature.

Jeffrey

I still think that you're trying to overstate your case. I don't see Euripides saying that Dionysus was not born of Semele:

From here I gather you refer to this:

Quote:

FIFTH VOICE: His mother dropped him early,
as her womb, in forceful birth pangs,
was struck by Zeus' flying lightning bolt,
a blast which took her life.
Then Zeus, son of Cronos,
at once hid him away
in a secret birthing chamber,
buried in his thigh,
shut in with golden clasps,
concealed from Hera.

How is this not being born twice, once of a mortal?

gstafleu · 04-24-2007, 08:48 AM

How about Heracles? He was the sone of Zeus (a god) and Alcmene, a woman, so I don't think there is any problem with "born from a woman." When he died he underwent apotheosis and became a god, as witnessed by the following (Hercules has just built himself a funeral pire and jumped onto it):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ovid, Metamorphoses Bk IX

Now the fierce flames, spreading on every side, were crackling loudly, and licking at his body, he unconcerned and scornful of them. The gods were fearful for earth’s champion. Saturnian Jupiter spoke to them, gladly, since he understood their feelings. ‘O divine beings, your fear for him delights me, and I willingly congratulate myself, with all my heart, that I am called father and ruler of a thoughtful race, and that my offspring is protected by your favour also. Though this tribute is paid to his great deeds, I am obliged to you, also. But do not allow your loyal hearts to feel groundless fears. Forget Oeta’s flames! He, who has defeated all things, will defeat the fires you see, nor will he feel Vulcan’s power, except in the mortal part that he owes to his mother, Alcmene. What he has from me is immortal, deathless and eternal: and that, no flame can destroy. When it is done with the earth, I will accept it into the celestial regions, and I trust my action will please all the gods. But if there is anyone, anyone at all, who is unhappy at Hercules’s deification, and would not wish to grant this gift, he or she should know that it was given for merit, and should approve it, though unwillingly.’ The gods agreed. Juno, also, appeared to accept the rest of his words with compliance, but not the last ones, upset that she was being censored.

Meanwhile, Mulciber had consumed whatever the flames could destroy, and no recognisable form of Hercules remained, no semblance of what came to him from his mother: he only retained his inheritance from Jove. As a snake enjoys its newness, sloughing old age with its skin, gleaming with fresh scales; so, when the Tirynthian hero had shed his mortal body, he became his better part, beginning to appear greater, and more to be revered, in his high majesty. The all-powerful father of the gods carrying him upwards, in his four-horse chariot, through the substance-less clouds, set him among the shining stars.

So we even have an ascension. Was he a saviour god (mind you, I still don't know exactly what that is)? Well,

Heracles quotes Aelian, Varia Historia, 5.3 as follows: By conquering dangerous archaic forces he is said to have "made the world safe for mankind" and to be its benefactor. That would be pretty close. Of course Aelianus is ca. 175–ca. 235, i.e. well after Christ, but the tradition he refers to did not necessarily spring up on the day of his birth.

I can't seem to find an instance of Varia Historia on the net to verify the quote. Does anyone have access?

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu · 04-24-2007, 09:03 AM

And the we have Psyche, here is the tale as told by Apuleios. She is a normal human woman, born from a woman: "THERE was sometimes a certain King, inhabiting in the west parts, who had to wife a noble Dame, by whom he had three daughters exceeding fair[.]" Psyche is the youngest daughter, so no problem with "born from a woman."

She then marries Cupid and after many trials undergoes apotheosis:

Quote:

Incontinently [immediately] after, Jupiter commanded Mercury to bring up Psyche, the spouse of Cupid, into the palace of heaven. And then he took a pot of immortality, and said: "Hold, Psyche, and drink to the end thou mayst be immortal, and that Cupid may be thine everlasting husband."

By and by the great banquet and marriage feast was sumptuously prepared. Cupid sat down with his dear spouse between his arms: Juno likewise with Jupiter, and all the other Gods in order. Ganymede filled the pot of Jupiter, and Bacchus served the rest. Their drink was nectar, the wine of the Gods. Vulcan prepared supper, the Hours decked up the house with roses and other sweet smells, the Graces threw about balm, the Muses sang with sweet harmony, Apollo tuned pleasantly to the harp, Venus danced finely, Satyr and Pan played on their pipes: and thus Psyche was married to Cupid, and after she was delivered of a child, whom we call Pleasure.

Is she a savior? She does deliver a boon to the earth: Pleasure. Here is the latin, from http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/apule...us.cupid.shtml:

Quote:

Sic rite Psyche convenit in manum Cupidinis et nascitur illis maturo partu filia, quam Voluptatem nominamus.

So she bestows "voluptas" onto the world, a good thing no matter how you translate it. She has my vote for a savior god(dess) born from woman.

Gerard Stafleu

Chris Weimer · 04-24-2007, 10:05 AM

Neither Hercules nor Psyche are saving anyone from anything. Are firefighters saviors? Come on, Gerard, that's just pure abuse of the English language. Being unfamiliar with swthr is no excuse for this parallelomania.

gstafleu · 04-24-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Neither Hercules nor Psyche are saving anyone from anything. Are firefighters saviors? Come on, Gerard, that's just pure abuse of the English language. Being unfamiliar with swthr is no excuse for this parallelomania.

Well, I asked you before exactly what makes a god a savior god, and so far, AFAICT, no answer. Some time ago I posted a thread on what Jesus is supposed to save us from, which didn't generate any answers either. So, lacking any clear definitions, I've come up with my own, which is that the god does something good for mankind. Rather broad, sure, but until I see a better definition (and please feel free to provide one)...

Having said all this, the quote from Varia Historia says that Heracles made the world safe for mankind, which, however you turn it, sounds a lot like a savior god: if you make the world safe for mankind then clearly that same mankind is being saved from various dangers.

Finally, savior gods or not, we still have the fact that both Psyche and Heracles are pretty good candidates for gods "born from woman."

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu · 04-24-2007, 12:06 PM

This thread hasn't mentioned Krishna yet, but that of course couldn't last. Krishna was the eighth son born to the princess Devaki, so no problem with "born of a woman." He was a god, so we check that off too. Was he a savior? Some people think so. Whatever you think of this article, it makes one thing clear: we had better find some way to describe what a savior god is, or statements like "such and such was (not) a savior god" loose their meaning. The end of the article e.g. comes up with a definition of savior that is uniquely Christian. Of course if you do that only Jesus was a savior god and the whole issue becomes moot.

Gerard Stafleu

Chris Weimer · 04-24-2007, 02:45 PM

Gerard - please show a trajectory from Krishna to Christ. Thank you.

Edit: And Matthew and various parts of Paul all explain what Jesus saves you from. You might want to start there.

04-24-2007, 12:06 PM	#49
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Krishna? This thread hasn't mentioned Krishna yet, but that of course couldn't last. Krishna was the eighth son born to the princess Devaki, so no problem with "born of a woman." He was a god, so we check that off too. Was he a savior? Some people think so. Whatever you think of this article, it makes one thing clear: we had better find some way to describe what a savior god is, or statements like "such and such was (not) a savior god" loose their meaning. The end of the article e.g. comes up with a definition of savior that is uniquely Christian. Of course if you do that only Jesus was a savior god and the whole issue becomes moot. Gerard Stafleu

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04-23-2007, 11:01 PM	#42
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Jake, Gamera was saying that the mythicists use other mythic sources to demonstrate that Jesus himself was purely mythical.

04-23-2007, 11:02 PM	#43
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Also, do you think that the Orphic Hymn to Semele presupposes her (quasi-)divinity?

04-24-2007, 10:05 AM	#47
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Neither Hercules nor Psyche are saving anyone from anything. Are firefighters saviors? Come on, Gerard, that's just pure abuse of the English language. Being unfamiliar with swthr is no excuse for this parallelomania.

04-24-2007, 02:45 PM	#50
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Gerard - please show a trajectory from Krishna to Christ. Thank you. Edit: And Matthew and various parts of Paul all explain what Jesus saves you from. You might want to start there.

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