Johnny Skeptic

It is also fine if you conclude Muslims believe the Bible is all valid and true (but they don't, with this one exceptional Muslim I came across) or if you believe they don't try and disprove the beliefs of Christians, including the belief that the Bible is infallible (they do).

Nor am I actually refuted, nor will I will not be very convinced if you abandon addressing the actual points made in my argument.[/quote]

You are not telling the truth. There was no exceptional Muslim. If you have any evidence to the contrary, then please post it.

I have not found one single Bible commentary or other Christian source that agrees with your arguments? Do you by any chance have any? No?, I didn't think so. I quoted two Christian web sites that disagree with your argument, but you conveniently have not quoted any. You try to pass off your arguments as being authoritative without any credible corroboration whatsoever. You know next to nothing about the Koran.

Just so I understand you correctly, is your position that 1) Muslims are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by rebuilding Babylon, or having some Arabs pitch their tents there, or having some shepherds graze their flocks there, that 2) Muslims believe that they are duty bound by the Koran to discredit Isaiah 13:19-20 by rebuilding Babylon, having some Arabs graze their flocks there, or having some shepherds graze their flocks there, and that 3) Muslims do not believe that the prophet Isaiah was a prophet of God and would like to discredit him?

After further consideration, I will conduct some more research, but I assume that in typical fashion, you will not post any corroborative sources at all. I will make sure that you get the discreditation that you deserve.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Lee Merrill: Consider the following:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A10472843

Islam, Christianity and the Holy Prophets Mohammed and Jesus (pbut)
This article was written by an Action Network user not the BBC

Updated: 29 Mar 2006

By Mr Avenger, Test Valley

Both Muslims and Christians are known in Islam as 'the People of the Book' and there is much in common that are shared. Firstly, Muslims refer to God as 'Allah'. In the ancient Aramaic, said to be the mother tongue of the Prophet Jesus (Isa-al-Islam, peace be upon him) the word would have been 'Allaha'. In English, the word 'God' can be manipulated into Gods, God (male) and Godesses (female). 'Allah' has no gender nor can it be pluralised and it is the purest representation of the Oneness of God, that he is not begotten nor does he beget, in any single word.

With reference to the Holy Prophet Jesus (pbuh) both Muslims and Christians are 'together' on many issues. Islam is the only non-Christian faith that makes it an article of faith to believe in the Holy Prophet Jesus (pbuh); no Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh). We agree that he was one of the mightiest Prophets to have been sent by Allah

*We believe that he is the true Messiah sent by God
*We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention (which even some modern day Christians do not believe)
*He did miracles with the power of Allah: healing the sick, the blind, the lepars; by the Power of Allah he gave life to the dead
*We both love and respect Jesus (pbuh)

Of course, there is a 'parting of the waves' between both Christian and Muslim on certain core issues:

*the Christians insist on the supposed divinity of Jesus (pbuh), and
*that he died on the cross for the sins of humanity (and was resurrected)

Johnny: Now Lee, since Muslims believe that Jesus is the true Messiah sent by God, are you claiming that they do not believe that Isaiah was a true prophet of God? Of course, it will be a simple matter for me to find out if Muslims support or oppose the writings of Isaiah. I suspect that you already know that Muslims do not oppose the writings of Isaiah.

Please reply to my previous post.

Johnny Skeptic

That is a lie. I have never claimed that Muslims believe the Bible is all valid and true. Just read my previous post and find out for yourself.

Consider the following from a Christian web site:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/islam.htm

Muhammad's religion, Islam, makes some of the following assertions:

Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given and the government will be upon his shoulder and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 11:1-2 There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him.

Johnny: Now then, Lee, do you still claim that Muslims want to discredit the prophet Isaiah? I have quoted three Christian web sites, and three Muslim web sites, that disagree with your absurd arguments, while you have not quoted one single web site. In addition, I doubt that one single Bible commentary, or one single noted fundamentalist Christian scholar, or one single Muslim scholar, agrees with your arguments. How many of my sources will you attempt to discredit, while at the same time considering your own uncorroborated claims to be authoritative? If this were a college debate, I would win hands down.

EthnAlln

Well, you know the Evangelicals' principle: Never pass up a chance to preach. (They call it "witnessing".)

EthnAlln

Well, Bishop Hislop had this in his favor, that the Book of Revelation consistently spoke of Babylon as a code word for Rome.

Johnny Skeptic

Lee Merrill has made himself look utterly ridiculous regarding the Babyon prophecy, or should I say much more ridiculous than usual. He knows next to nothing about Islam and Muslims. He almost never quotes authoritative sources, and he attempts to pass his own personal opinions off as being authoritative. My word, he never even quoted any FUNDAMENTALIST Christain scholars who agree with him. I have not found one single Bible commentary that comes anywhere near saying what Lee says. I quote three Christian web sites that disagree with him, and three Muslim web sites that disagree with him. It most certainly IS NOT the intention of Muslims to discredit ANYTHING that Isaiah wrote. One wonders if Lee actually believes his own arguments. I think it was Josh McDowell who first got Lee interested in the Babylon prophecy. McDowell is a joke. Some of his writings have even been discredited by fundamentalist Christians.

Helpmabob

Odd question. It is possibly to show no mercy in range of different circumstances. Did you mean what are the worst ramifications I can imagine as a result of someone not showing mercy?This reads to me like a cop-out Johnny. You seem to proffer this as a perfectly viable alternative to believing in God and turning to Him. Yet God says that Jesus is the only way. Who is right?
Thank you. Supposing there is the God as revealed in the Bible. Hypothetically speaking would you be prepared to suffer for some limited period before gaining parole to repay for the wrong you have done in this life? If so, would you be prepared to suffer a further period of suffering for wrongs committed during that period of suffering? And another etc, ad infinitum?

Johnny Skeptic

From your perspective, obviously, any supposed creator the universe who has sufficient power to beat up anyone who disagrees with him. You maintain that God is right simply because he says he is right. I do not see what makes such a notion valid.

What do you mean by “prepared”?

Same as before. In addition, the Bible says that God is merciful. I can’t help it that I am more merciful than he is, nor can he help it that he is less merciful than I am.

Why is God unwilling to be more merciful than he is? If he were more merciful than he is, surely you would not object, but yet, you do not object that he is not more merciful than he is. Why don’t you care one way or the other? Surely you care one way or the other whether or not murder is wrong.

Doug Shaver

Why, aside from your say-so, should I believe that God ever said anything of that sort?

Helpmabob

Hi Johnny Skeptic - I mean are you willing; do you say it is fair enough that you should attempt to repay the wrongs of your sin? It sounds like you do, although you would like to be ‘paroled’ after a time. In that case, when do you pay for the sins committed during that initial term of imprisonment?

Christ died once and for all to offer us righteousness and freedom from sin forever, by grace, free. If you have a better way, I really would be delighted to hear all about it.Yes murder is wrong.

Hi Doug - You can, and shall, believe, as you will – there is immense freedom in our society for us to think, and largely to do, as we wish. But the reasons I believe are first that it is written in the Bible: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father but by me." [John 14:6]. Second, I increasingly recognise that there is no way I can redeem myself. I have sinned in the past and I keep on sinning: I cannot desist.