King Rat

A NEW LIFE BEGINS

Why is this now innocent man still in prison? Why aren't christians all over the world clamoring for his release?

Magus55

Because he isn't innocent? Being Christian doesn't mean we try to circumvent justice. Just because God saves him, doesn't mean he doesn't have to face the consequences for his crimes on Earth.

King Rat

So you understand the limits to Jesus' forgiveness?

Magus55

There are no limits. Jesus' forgiveness of his crimes, doesn't mean he gets away with his crimes on Earth. He can be forgiven for what he did, but he still faces the consequences of them here.

King Rat

That is contradictory. You are admitting that Jesus has limits pertaining to the physical world (Earth). Jesus cannot forgive crimes in the physical world?

seebs

Whether or not a sin is forgiven is not a component of our criminal justice system, and it's not obvious that it should be.

Naked Ape

I don't think that anyone would suggest that they should be. The suggestion is that somewhere on the list of things that Jesus cannot do, we find the entry: Jesus cannot forgive crimes in the physical world.

A counter-example would settle this in a heartbeat. Do you have one handy?

Cheers,

Naked Ape

seebs

I think I see where you're trying to go, but I don't think it turns out to be meaningful. If the crime has been forgiven (and who knows whether the guy is lying?), what effects should we expect to see? What's the basis for asserting that the crime isn't forgiven? Jail time has nothing to do with whether or not you've been forgiven!

If the assertion is "Jesus can't override the normal consequences of some actions", I think the correct response is to qualify it "... without abrogating free will". Fine by me. Jesus cannot, without abrogating free will, force people to change their behavior. And?

King Rat

Even worse it means that christians have no qualms about incarcerating and punishing an innocent man (according to their beliefs). If chrisitians all agree that his sins are forgiven and he has found god, why is he still in prison?

It is not just the limits of Jesus' power that is at issue, but also the ambivalence toward justice of the christians themselves.

This prisoners free will would not be in any way affected if he has indeed been forgiven and found christ. If you cannot tell if he is lying about being forgiven, how can I tell if you are not lying about being forgiven seebs?

seebs

I'm sorry, how is he innocent? He did do these things, yes?

Being forgiven for sticking your hand in the fire doesn't cure burns, it just means the person forgiving you isn't mad at you anymore.

The earthly consequences of our actions remain relevant and, by and large, appropriate.

Yes, but for him to be freed, people would have to be compelled to free him, and that would affect their free will.

I don't think we can lie about being forgiven, as we simply can't know. What people might lie about is whether or not they have asked forgiveness. And, hey, maybe I am lying... But that ends up being between me and God. It has very little effect on anyone else, as forgiveness of sins has very little to do with the immediate consequences of actions.