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Old 03-17-2013, 09:58 AM   #61
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I still find the letter of Arius to Alexander problematic. Let's start by understanding what is being said in the treatise. Let's suppose that the letter is authentic. Let's suppose that someone named Arius wrote or signed on to the letter. What is the letter at its core saying?

Valentinus is named as one of four heretics who assigned a creaturely status to the Son. According to the language of the times, Valentinian was one who multiplied gods. That is his heretical 'profile.' Historically speaking Valentinism seems to have been historically concentrated in Rome. Yes there were stories to the contrary - of an Alexandrian origin for Valentinus. But as Lampe and others have shown, there was a historical concentration of Valentinians in Rome.

It is interesting to note that this same charge was laid against Origen soon after his death. He was accused of making the Son coeternal with the Father, that he was positing two unbegotten principles of equal rank or deriving one from the other by material emission. Who were those people making the charge against Origen. The most famous seems to have been Methodius of Olympius. But it was must be also acknowledged that Origen faced a lot of resistance at home (= Alexandria).

After the Council of Nicaea this charge of the Orthodox promoting a form of this Valentinism could be pressed more effectively against champions of the watchword homoousios. This word homoousios was probably of Valentinian origin. It entered the ecclesiastical lexicon under quarantine, as a Valentinian term denoting the consubstantiality between members of the same embodied species. As Edwards notes:

Quote:
For Origen, for the Platonists and for many Christians even after Nicaea, the word could signify only the unity of a substrate, a divisible stuff or a congeries of material particulars. When the arch-homoousian, Apollinarius of Laodicea, maintained that Christ is consub- stantial in flesh with all humanity and in spirit with the Father, he was taxed with the same confusion of flesh and spirit that was thought to be the characteristic vice of every Gnostic speculation. Thus it was not quite ludicrous for the Arian to allege that the homoousian was a Gnostic under his mitre. (p. 195)
So this is the context of the letter. The letter was essentially accusing the orthodox of having developed from gnosticism. This is important for understanding the counter-charge that those of Arius made the Son a Creature.

Now the question arises was this letter really from Arius to Alexander or was it from a group of signatories of which Arius was one who signed on. I do not believe that the letter was originally written by 'Arius' but rather it was a group of bishops addressing Alexander, the new Pope of Egypt who was basically installed into the position by Hosius of Cordoba.

Notice the opening line says it is from:

Quote:
The Priests and Deacons to Our Blessed Father and Bishop, Alexander; greetings in the Lord
and then on the signature Arius's name has been inserted in front of these same 'priests' and 'deacons':

Quote:
I pray that you fare well in the Lord, blessed father. Arius; the priests Aethales, Achilles, Carpones, Sarmatas and Arius; the deacons Euzoios, Lucius, Julius, Menas, Helladius, and Gaius; the bishops Secundas of the Pentapolis, Theonas of Libya, and Pistus whom the Arians [later] set up [as bishop] at Alexandria.
I am quite certain the original signature page read:

Quote:
I pray that you fare well in the Lord, blessed father - the priests Aethales, Achilles, Carpones, Sarmatas and Arius; the deacons Euzoios, Lucius, Julius, Menas, Helladius, and Gaius; the bishops Secundas of the Pentapolis, Theonas of Libya, and Pistus whom the Arians [later] set up [as bishop] at Alexandria.
Now it would appear that there was a consistent effort to make Arius the scapegoat for the disturbances in the lead up to Nicaea. Why?
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:19 AM   #62
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Now it would appear that there was a consistent effort to make Arius the scapegoat for the disturbances in the lead up to Nicaea. Why?
Arius was born in Lybia (bad origins !), lived in Alexandria. He was excommunicated in 321 by the bp Alexander of Alexandria.

He made certainly a better scapegoat than his friend Eusebius of Nicomedia...
and he was not invited to Nicaea.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:21 AM   #63
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Default Ulfilas, Wulfila

Ulfilas, Wulfila:
little wolf (ca. 310 – 383) was a bishop, missionary, and Bible translator into Gothic language. Wulfila was ordained a bishop by Eusebius of Nicomedia and returned to his people to work as a missionary. In 348, to escape religious persecution by a Gothic chief, probably Athanaric, who was a christian orthodox, he obtained permission from the emperor of the East Constantius II (337-361), sympathetic to Arianism, to migrate with his flock of converts to Moesia and settle near Nicopolis ad Istrum in modern northern Bulgaria.

The name Ister (ad Istrum) or Istros is a name for the Danube. The Danube was the northern frontier of the Roman Empire. There, with the protection of Constantius, Wulfila translated the Bible from Greek into the Gothic language.

The history of the Goths during the 4th and 5th centuries shows divisions between orthodox, allied to the roman orthodox emperors, arians allied to the roman arian emperors, and pagans, who were progressively absorbed by one of the two christian parties.

The roman emperors wanted to enrol in their legions a great number of Goths, who were good soldiers.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:31 AM   #64
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Default Arian kings of the Wisigoths

Alaric I (395-410), Ataulf (410-415), Sigeric (415), Wallia (415-419).

Arian Wisigothic kingdom of Toulouse (418-507) :
Theodoric I (418-451), Thorismond (451-453), Theodoric II (453-466), Euric (466-484), Alaric II (484-507).

Alaric II was killed at the battle of Vouillé in 507, by the king of the Franks Clovis I, who converted to catholicism immediately after, since he had had the protection of the true God.


Reccared (or Recared) I (559–601) (reigned 586–601) was Visigothic King of Hispania, Septimania and Galicia. His reign marked a climactic shift in history, with the king's renunciation of Arianism in favour of Catholic Christianity in 587.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:37 PM   #65
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Default Arian kings of the Lombards

Rothari was king of the Lombards from 636 to 652; previously he had been duke of Brescia. He succeeded Arioald, who was an Arian like himself, and was one of the most energetic of Lombard kings. Fredegar relates (Chronicle, 71) that at the beginning of his reign he put to death many insubordinate nobles, and that in his efforts for peace he maintained very strict discipline.

Rodoald was a Lombard king of Italy, who succeeded his father Rothari on the throne in 652. He was assassinated after a reign of just six months in 653.

Aripert a rival claimant was elected with the support of the Catholic Church, which opposed the Arian monarchy. Aripert I (653-661) was the first Roman Catholic king of the Lombards.

Grimoald I (c. 610 – 671) was Arian duke of Benevento (651–662) and king of the Lombards (662–671).
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:50 PM   #66
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There is not a shred of evidence that Constantine was a Christian.
How do you then view the Fifty Bibles of Constantine

Constantine did not publish Homer.










εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:05 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Frank William's for one doubts that the letter was actually Constantine's http://books.google.com/books?id=tKt...pistle&f=false It's completely ludicrous to even consider for a moment that this letter was written by Constantine.
Many people do consider it was written by the Boss.


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It reads like a Church Father letter.

Someone wrote the letter. Let's just start here.


Quote:
But even the best incorporate its nonsense into their understanding of 'Arius' because we are so desperate for any information .
What is the consensus about the letter?


Quote:
Yeah have you read this letter?

Of course I have read the letter. I have spent a great deal of time actually analysing the letter in regard to what the author tells us about Arius. See below for a sample. (I did link to my notes earlier).


Quote:
The person who wrote this was a Christian. Do I need to fill out the objection to apply this to the person of the pagan Emperor Constantine?

Until we see what the consensus of opinion is about this letter let's leave such formalities aside.

Whether it was written by Constantine or by some forger from a later epoch (perhaps as late as the 5th century) it tells us what this author thought and what his biases were towards Arius of Alexandria.

Here is a sample outlining what this author thought about Arius as an author of Books - in terms of how these books related to the Christian Church and Jesus at the time, presumably around Nicaea c.325 CE


Arius as an Author of Books - in terms of the Christian Church and Jesus


He brought state orthodoxy into the light;
He hurled his wretched self into darkness.
He ended his labors with this

He wrote that he did not wish God to appear to be the subject of suffering of outrage
He wrote that (on the above account) he suggested and fabricated wondrous things indeed in respect to faith.
He wrote books that collected and gathered terrible and lawless impieties
He wrote books that agitated tongues [Editor: Very popular books]
He wrote books which deceived and destroyed

He introduced a belief of unbelief.
He introduced a belief of unbelief that is completely new.
He accepted Jesus as a figment
He called Jesus foreign
He did not adapt, he did not adapt (it was said twice) to God [Editor: the "new" orthodox God]
He was twice wretched

He reproached the church
He grieved the church
He wounded he church
He pained the church
He demoted Jesus
He dared to circumscribe Jesus
He undermined the (orthodox) truth
He undermined the (othodox) truth by various discourses
He detracted from Jesus who is indetractable
He questioned the presence of Jesus
He questioned the activity of Jesus
He questioned the all-pervading law of Jesus
He thought that there was a place outside of Jesus
He thought that there something else outside of Jesus
He denied the infiniteness of Jesus
He did not conclude that God is present in Christ
He had no faith in Christ
He did not follow the law that God's law is Christ
He had little piety toward Christ
He detracted from the uncorrupted intelligence of Jesus
He detracted from the belief in immortality of Jesus
He detracted from the uncorrupted intelligence of the Church
He was barred publicly from God’s church

All these desriptions are sourced in this letter.

Arius does not sound like a Christian of any substance.

In fact he sounds just about as opposite as one might get.

This sort of evidence suggests the extreme possibility he may not have been Christian at all.




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Old 03-17-2013, 03:16 PM   #68
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Thank you Andrew
.

I will second that again.

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I am not yet at the point where I can say Arius didn't exist of course. I am just asking questions.
Another interesting question arises when we investigate the amount and the titles of the non canonical books which were preserved by the so-called Arians. To summarise this question, what is the relationship between the Arian heretics and the preservers of books of the non canonical new testament?



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Old 03-17-2013, 03:36 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Rothari was king of the Lombards from 636 to 652; previously he had been duke of Brescia. He succeeded Arioald, who was an Arian like himself, and was one of the most energetic of Lombard kings. Fredegar relates (Chronicle, 71) that at the beginning of his reign he put to death many insubordinate nobles, and that in his efforts for peace he maintained very strict discipline.

Rodoald was a Lombard king of Italy, who succeeded his father Rothari on the throne in 652. He was assassinated after a reign of just six months in 653.

Aripert a rival claimant was elected with the support of the Catholic Church, which opposed the Arian monarchy. Aripert I (653-661) was the first Roman Catholic king of the Lombards.

Grimoald I (c. 610 – 671) was Arian duke of Benevento (651–662) and king of the Lombards (662–671).
Excellent work, Huon,
Thanks
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:39 PM   #70
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On Constantine possibly not being a xian, I wonder if the history of Hagia Sophia is of note. I am getting the impression xianity was making headway in fits and starts in the fourth century - it was not obvious it had won until the 400's.

Quote:
Although there are no artifacts confirming it, it is said that Hagia Sophia was built on the site of an ancient pagan temple. Hagia Sophia underwent two phases of construction before attaining its present state.

Documents indicate that the first Hagia Sophia was built by Emperor Constantius, son of Emperor Constantinos I, and was opened for services in 360 AD. Although very little is known about this church, it is assumed that it was a basilica-type structure with a rectangular floor plan, circular apse and timbered roof. It was similar to St.Studios, a basilica in Istanbul , the ruins of which still exist. Ancient sources emphasize that the eastern wall was circular.

Constantius donated gold and silver as well as religious objects to his church, but these were vandalized by Arians during the Council of 381 AD.

Hagia Sophia was first named "Megale Ekklesia" (The Great Church) as it was the largest church in Constantinople. The historian Socrates indicated that the church was named Sophia during the reign of Emperor Constantius. The name given to the church symbolized the second divine attribute of the Holy Trinity. Originally, Sophia, which means "Holy Wisdom", was a name given to Christ by 4th century theologians. Both names, Megale Ekklesia and Hagia Sophia are used today.

The original church was destroyed in 404 AD by mobs, during the riots, when Emperor Arcadius sent the Patriarch of Constantinople, John Chrysostom, into exile for his open criticism of the Empress.

Emperor Theodosius II built a new church which was completed in 415 AD. The architect of this second church was Ruffinos. The edifice was constructed in basilica-style and had five naves. In common with other basilicas of that age, it had a covered roof. The remains of this church, excavated in 1935, show that a staircase of five steps led to a columned propylaeum in front of the entrance of the building. Including the imperial entrance, there were three doorways in the facade.
The results of excavations indicate that Hagia Sophia was 60 metres wide. The length is unknown, since further excavations inside the present-day edifice are not permitted.

During the rebellion of Monophysites in 532, Hagia Sophia was destroyed along with many other important buildings, among which were the Church of St. Eirene, Zorzip Bath and Samsun Hospital.

After resorting to bloodshed, Emperor Justinian succeeded in saving his throne. This revolt is known as the "Nike Revolt" in Byzantine history, since the rebels repeatedly shouted "Nike", the name of the goddess of victory.

Following these events, Emperor Justinian ordered the construction of a new church which was to surpass in magnificence all earlier churches. His ambition to make this new church unique, spurred him on to unremitting effort. Historians write that he personally supervised the construction and made full use of all his empire could offer. The two most famous architects of the age; Anthemius of Tralles (Aydin) and Isidorus of Miletus, were entrusted with the construction of the building. They supervised one hundred master builders and ten thousand labourers.

The finest and rarest materials from the four corners of the empire were brought to Constantinople to be used in the construction of Hagia Sophia. The prophyry columns previously taken to Rome from an Egyptian temple in Heliopolis, ivory and gold icons and ornaments from ancient temples in Ephesus, Kizikos and Baalbek were among them. The construction was completed in a very short time.

It took five years, ten months and four days, from February 23rd 532 to December 27th 537. During the dedication ceremony, Emperor Justinian put aside formalities of state and entered the church excitedly, to say a prayer of thanks to God for allowing him to fulfill his dearest wish. He cried with pride, remembering the temple in Jerusalem "Oh, Solomon, I have surpassed thee".

Later, the church was damaged many times by earthquakes and fires, and had to be repaired and reinforced.

On August 15th 553, January 14th 557 and May 7th 559, earthquakes destroyed the eastern side of the dome. The damage was repaired by the nephew of the original architect, Isidorus. He increased the height of the dome by 2.65 metres and built buttresses in the form of towers to support the dome.

On February 9th 869, during the reign of Emperor Basil I (867-886), an earthquake damaged the western side of the building. It was repaired in 870. On October 25th 986, a violent earthquake resulted in the collapse of the western apse and caused partial damage to the dome. The church had to be closed until the architect Tridat finished repairing it in 994.

In 1204, the church was sacked by the Fourth Crusaders. During the Palaeologian age, Emperor Michael VIII (1261-1282) had Hagia Sophia repaired by the architect Ruchas, and the buttresses in the south-west were added at that time.
http://www.itw.com.tr/html/st_sophia.html

(Although arguably xianity has never been stable!)
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