Toto

Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews -- A History by James Caroll

It does appear to be him. I have not read the book, but I recall it being favorably reviewed with some reservations, not "widely panned." It is part history, part "personal confession". But you probably read different reviews from me.

I'll pass on commenting on your ideas of what is reasonable to believe, since your biases are obvious to everyone. If you could link to the Crosstalk debate, I would appreciate it.

Vinnie

You mean like the ones who claim that thier ancestors were not monkeys? LMAO! That carbon dating is invalid because of bogus tests? That man and dinosaur coexisted? That we weren't there so we can't know it happened? The dust on the moon? The shrinking sun? or any other story that a half minute of research or critical thinking would quickly discredit? That there was a global flood? Young earth creationists know bible bullshit. They filter any science through the Bible. Sorry but that is not science, Bede. Its composite nonsense. Scientific research warrants precedence over all fields. Dawkings got at least that muh right....

I got no problem labeling something bullshit or blatantly stupid whether it comes from an atheist, Christian, theist, democratic, communist or whatever. I guess not everyone here has the same level of honesty and open-mindedness as me. Some people are only willing to call spades spades when they exist in another garden. That goes for some theists and atheists on this site. You can speak of "antiChristian bullshit" but when it comes to blatant Christian bullshit you seem to hold back punches. I like to spread the love.

Furthermore, what evidence can you provide that the average 6 day creationist knows more about evolution than the average science major? I actually am more charitable to pew-warmers. Alleged "professional scientists" and researchers who stick with this nonesense should simply know better. They are without excuse.

They do not engage in objetive research. Its theology, not science.

Vinnie

Bookman

Bede, serious question. Could this be a USA/ UK perspective thing? I recognize that my perspective is quite limited, but my limited exposure to how churches approach this issue is that in the USA it isn't dealt with. My mother-in-law, who is a methodist minister with a degree from Vanderbilt (which I believe has a good reputation, though it is a liberal divinity college) didn't study these issues in depth and does not consider the answers to these questions to even be particularly important.

I don't think that this implies anything nefarious or deceptive. She just considers it more important to help people develop a personal relationship with god and to find 'grace'. Issues of historiocity are not important to her ministry.

Would it be accurate to say that the typical graduate of divinity in the UK has made a serious study of this issue? Could cultural differences explain this difference in perspective?

Regards,
Bookman

Doctor X

Perhaps this is too easy.

Incorrect.

Next. . . .

Assumption. One may consider it valid, but one cannot consider it fact.

They would remain wrong.

"Try, dear Zyrkov, to cultivate a sense of humor."

Now we find the purpose of this cry of "injur'd merit." There is an attempt to link Carroll's piece above to "indoctrination." Poisoning the Well of course. Carroll's book may or may not be "anti-Catholic" propaganda, but that does not alter what is valid in his piece quoted above.

Evidence demonstrates otherwise.

Well . . . he has me there. . . . [Stop that.--Ed.]

Must I parse the fallacies? I note an interesting tactic--by placing an opinion in "()" as in the opening quote, one tries to make it seem fact. Then, of course, we end with an argumentum ad [No Latin!--Ed.] and appeal to the masses.

You see "reasonable people" [Tm--Ed.] do not agree with the "mythers" [Boo. Hiss.--Ed.]

Unfortunately, that is not an argument. If an individual wishes to demonstrate that consideration of the mythicist view is untenable, that is one thing. He has not done that. To just try to will it away with fallacy is another thing.

Presumably filled with the same creationists who know science better than science majors? What then is their excuse for denial? Whether or not someone thinks "liberal" [Boo. Hiss.--Ed.] scholarship is "rubbish" remains irrelevant. Either one provides evidence or they do.

Simply looking at evidence and trying to pretend it does not exist really does not prove edifying. Thus:

One can be quite intelligence and still inter his cranium in the sands on the bands of the River DeNile. It is not a process owned exclusively by the ignorant, though they do look a bit more silly.

Unfortunately, that these "Jesus mythers" do not behave as the strawmen cited above, this remains another ipse dixit serving to Poison the Well. Once again, fallacy is not argument.

Further appeals to "injur'd merit" follow. Cue the violins.

--J.D.

Vinnie

What about John's material? Which version? Just the Framework? The evidence for this?

Now if you think the sayings material, which takes up a very significant porton of the fourth Gospel (see a red letter Bible) comes from accurate eyewitness recollection you might as well be a Jesus mythicist

If you want to say some of might have stemmed from a core that underwent a lot of theological development and reflection, you are in the ballpark.

Vinnie

Vorkosigan

I have to follow Bookman here, Bede. I think there is a bit of a cultural gap here.

You know, you worry me. You appear to be getting more and more closeminded and right wing Catholic as time goes on. Far from being widely panned, Constantine's Sword spent two months on the NYTimes bestseller list. As for James Carroll

• JAMES CARROLL was born in Chicago in 1943, and raised in Washington where his father, an Air Force general, served as the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. Carroll attended Georgetown University before entering the seminary to train for the Catholic priesthood. He received BA & MA degrees at St. Paul's College, the Paulist Fathers' seminary in Washington. In 1965 he studied poetry with Allan Tate at the University of Minnesota. He was a Civil Rights worker, and community organizer in Washington and New York. He was ordained to the priesthood in 1969.
  
  Carroll served as Catholic Chaplain at Boston University from 1969 to 1974. He studied poetry with George Starbuck, and eventually published a book of poems. Carroll left the priesthood to become a writer. In 1974 he was Playwright-in-Residence at the Berkshire Theater Festival in Stockbridge, MA.. In 1976 he published his first novel, Madonna Red. It was translated into seven languages. Since then he has published eight additional novels, including the New York Times bestsellers Mortal Friends (1978), Family Trade (1982), and Prince of Peace (1984). His novel The City Below was a New York Times Notable Book of 1994. Carroll's essays and articles have appeared in The New Yorker, and other publications. His op-ed column runs weekly in the Boston Globe. His memoir An American Requiem: God, My Father, And The War That Came Between Us received the 1996 National Book Award in nonfiction and other awards. His most recent book is Constantine's Sword, the Church and the Jews: A History, published in January, 2001, a New York Times bestseller. It was named a Notable Book of the year by the New York Times, and one of the five best non-fiction books of 2001 by The Christian Science Monitor. His tenth novel, The Secret Father, will be published in 2003.
  
  Constantine's Sword has been the occasion of interfaith dialogues and conversations at synagogues, churches, and universities across the United States and in Canada. It was the subject of symposia at Harvard University, the proceedings of which were published in the Harvard Divinity School Bulletin; and at Brandeis University, the proceedings of which were published as a collection of essays entitled "Catholics, Jews and the Prism of Conscience." Carroll lectures widely on Jewish-Christian reconciliation, and on the question of war and peace. He is a regular participant in on-going Jewish-Christian-Muslim encounters at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, and he is a member of the Advisory Board of Open House, a West Bank project working toward Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation.
  
  Carroll is a member of the Council of PEN-New England, which he served for four years as Chair. He has been a Shorenstein Fellow at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, and a Fellow at the Center for the Study of Values in Public Life at the Harvard Divinity School. He continues to hold associate appointments at the Kennedy School and at the Harvard Divinity School. He is a Trustee of the Boston Public Library. He is a member of the Advisory Board of the International Center for Ethics, Justice, and Public Life at Brandeis University. Carroll is a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, a member of the Academy's Committee on International Security Studies, and Chair of the Academy's Visiting Scholars Center. He is at work on a history of the Pentagon.
  
  James Carroll lives in Boston with his wife, the novelist Alexandra Marshall. They have two grown children. {emphasis mine}

Yes, it looks like Carroll is just an anti-Catholic bigot.

<sigh>

Vorkosigan

Bede

Possibly. The C of E has recognised that bishops and priests sprouting post modern claptrap is a disaster and has retrenched the orthodox position of late. Creationism is not an issue here and neither is abortion (or not yet, the sheer scale of the industry is beginning to cause problems when it's linked to the public). Also the C of E, even when theologically conservative, are politically well to the left of the Labour government so you don't get the same heart ache from liberal believers.

As for what's taught in colleges, that varies. But it is more John Meier than Dom Crosson. NT Wright, lately promoted to Bishop of Durham, is also very popular here among academics (and completely unknown by the general public). We do get the odd journalist doing a Carroll, IN Wilson and John Cornwall spring to mind, but the subject isn't considered interesting usually. Mind you, the UK is still anti-Catholic and we are the only group specifically discriminated against in the constitution.

On conservative v liberal views of Jesus, there is a lot of interesting stuff to discuss here but any conversation with Jesus Mythers is a waste of time. Perhaps Vinnie will move elsewhere to boards where this sort of subject is profitable.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Bede

So not as long as the Da Vinci Code. So what?

I didn't call Carroll a bigot but his book is certainly anti-Catholic and intended to be. He is one a number of left wing Catholics who have got it into their heads that the laity are ignorant and everything would be fine if we threw out everything challenging or distinctive. The C of E followed that very path and is only now pulling out of the dive. Carroll may not mean to be anti-Christian, but, as he is getting applause from a load of diehard atheists, he is clearly managing it.

BTW, no need to worry about me. Any Christian who spends any time on these boards is bound to end up getting defensive from time to time. Goes with the territory. Oddly enough, you can sound like an eyes-to-the-wall fanatic occasionally as well .

Happy Christmas all.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Vinnie

Right after the holidays I'll be popping in there with my new HJ methodology

I agree that this forum is very unproductive as of late--much more so that would be usual. That explains the partial exodus and its real lack of quality and blatant misinformation as of late.

But should "elsewhere" turn into a debate over Jesus' existence I will depart from there as well. This is all very tedious.

Vinnie

Bede

Unlikely. I'm a mod elsewhere.