LP675

I can’t see any reference to anything more than ‘killing’ regarding the firstborn. No skewering, no suffering (of those being slaughtered at least). For all we know the killing was entirely painless and instantaneous. The ‘suffering’ would be of the parents.

The teaching of the bible (I think) is that this was part of the punishment of the people of Egypt. My view would be there is little difference here from the punishment of the world at the time of Noah, or the destruction of Sodom, or the punishment of the Amalekites, or even the numerous punishments of Israel (or any other instance of God judging a society for wickedness).

If one takes the view God is entitled to punish a society for it’s wickedness one probably will have little difficulty with these passages. If one takes the view God is not entitled to punish a society for it’s wickedness, you are likely to take very strong exception to God’s actions in the passages.

John A. Broussard

As Alice would say, "Curiouser and curiouser."

Please explain to me how a god who is entitled to punish a society for its wickedness wouldn't find some way to do so without punishing the innocent as well? Anti-abortionist make the point that the unborn child is innocent yet is being killed by abortionists. Yet god doesn't hesitate to kill all of the innocent ones, up to and even after birth.

Surely he must have some way around all that butchery...unless, of course, he enjoys the whole process.

I take all that back. If you believe that killing people isn't punishment, then all the above is meaningless from your viewpoint. Sorry!

Wallener

Object lesson. Sometimes an entire group of people are needed to fulfill this role...

LP675

No problem.

jakejonesiv

That is a terrific observation.

Jake Jones

John A. Broussard

Since, as you indicated, you have no problem with having innocent people suffer, I now understand where you're coming from.

However, I wonder if others who hold the view you describe in the above quoted passage can explain why they have no problems with biblical passages where god causes innocent people to suffer.

WWFStern

Just look at the text of the quote. It is specifically mentioned that the slaughter will produce wailing worse than there ever had been, and ever will be again. Whether it's the victims or the parents who are enduring agony, the God of this story clearly has some sort of fetish for suffering. Indeed, not only that, he apparently has a fetish for the suffering of innocent people, including children. Additionally, he seems to have a propensity for shifting the blame from the shoulders of the guilty onto the shoulders of the innocent. It's totally nonsensical, indeed, psychopathic, to slaughter all these innocent people because the Pharaoh and his minions will not do your bidding.

One cannot punish "a society" for wickedness. That almost inherently means punishing the innocent for sins they have not committed. The maniacs behind 9/11 punished "a society" for its perceived wickedness. In actuality, they slaughtered a lot of innocent Americans who were powerless to change the direction of this country's foreign policy. Just like, in slaughtering the child of the slave girl, God was punishing people who had no control whatsoever over the Pharaoh's policies. Societies are made up of individuals. The sins of the majority of any particular society do not implicate every citizen. Broad generalizations only serve to lump the guilty with the innocent.

Once again, an entire society is not equally guilty. A society is just a mass of individuals, all of whom are guilty to widely varying degrees. To punish the slave girl, and slaughter her child, is ludicrous if Egypt's sin was the enslavement of the Israelites. What, exactly, was the slave girl going to do to free them?

Do you think, in the name of punishing the wicked, every single German during WWII deserved to die? Do you think that society deserved such firm punishment for its wickedness?

Avatar

Well in that case, the good Christians of the world should do humanity a favor and exterminate us all. Kill every baby born so that they get top go to heaven before they are corrupted by life on this Earth. Slay all the unbelievers so that they may be judged...and then slay all the beleivers so they can be judged too. After all, thanks to God's screwup, we deserve every horrible, sadistic, pain-filled instant of torturous death by virtue of being born human--something that God should have known full well before he made us in the first place.

Wallener

As Objectivist Number One, Ayn Rand, would point out, there are no innocents in a wicked society. The one inalienable right people do actually have is the right to protest and struggle. If an individual does not protest and struggle against the wickedness done by the society at large, they too bear a measure of guilt. All Saudis share in culpability for what was done on 9/11; all Americans share culpability for what has been done in Iraq since.

Children are a tricky matter, but ultimately one must ask why someone, knowing they are part of a wicked society, would selfishly place their desire to reproduce above the greater interest of depriving the wicked society of a fresh generation necessary for its prolonged existence. Before wondering why the grist was milled, it is worth asking why the grist was brought to the mill in the first place.

LP675

I think you would struggle to make a case that God killing someone (or causing someone to die) is always punishment, if you accept all of Christian theology including the reality of heaven.

If, for example, God were to take me in my sleep and draw me to himself in Heaven, a place much preferable to the present state of existence I am in, then I would not be labeling that “punishment�. I would not be complaining.

“Taking me in my sleep� is just a euphemism for ‘killing me’, but I can’t see how it could be interpreted as punishment in the light of where I go.

So in the same way if babies are killed in their sleep painlessly and are taken directly to heaven I again think that to regard them as being ‘punished’ in any real sense would be mistaken.
I don’t have the time or inclination at the moment to do much more than assert it is possible to punish a society for it’s wickedness. If the members of a society are generally speaking wicked, then the bible makes clear occasionally God intervenes and punishes the society as a whole for its wickedness (But in most cases, according to Christian theology, punishment for one’s wickedness is left for the ‘judgment day’). If the society as a whole is in fact wicked, it is because the individuals that comprise the whole are also generally speaking wicked. It is certainly possible (even perhaps likely) that 'innocent' people (e.g. babies) are caught up in the judgment of the society, but those who are killed for example go to heaven. There are few truly “innocent� people in a wicked society being judged, or the society wouldn’t be being judged, because it wouldn’t be wicked enough to warrant God’s immediate punishment.

Regards
LP