makerowner

There's little Biblical support for that doctrine. First, Luke 16:23ff shows people being tortured after death, but before the resurrection, in Hades. So dead isn't really dead. Second, it's not clear whether the Lake of Fire involves instant destruction or eternal suffering: "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev. 20:10 RSV).
And besides all that, there's the matter of whether or not the punishments are appropriate for the crimes. We don't execute people, no matter how humanely, for slander, which is essentially what God does: " 'Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.' ." (Mark 2:28-9 RSV)

itsamysteryhuh

Noun usage of the word "torments" below:
Luke 16:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Adjective (not verb) use of the word "tormented" below:
Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented* in this flame.


So where's the verb, spin? :huh:

*tormented - adj. - anguished, hagridden... experiencing great pain, especially mental pain.

itsamysteryhuh

"Torments" in Luke 16:23 could very well mean "great mental anguish or sorrow."

Johnny Skeptic, do I take your word for it or do you have some sort of reliable proof (not proof based on speculation, etc.)?

spin

The verse under consideration was 16:24 and if you had looked at the Greek you could answer your own question. But working from a translation, what can one expect? Here's a clue: how does one parse odunwmai?


spin

makerowner

Sure it could, but it doesn't: "and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' " (Luke 16:23-4 RSV; emphasis added)

This is clearly a description of physical suffering. The word translated 'torments' in v. 23 is the Greek βάσανος. This is what Strong's Concordance has to say about it:
Obviously it's not 1) that's going on here, and both 2) and 3) are physical suffering, either from a torture device or disease.

itsamysteryhuh

Spin, which part of my last post did you not understand?


See? Neither the word "torments" nor the word "tormented" is used as a verb in the two verses you referred to. There are verb uses of the word "torments," but NOT in these two verses. So... your point? :huh:


Makerowner, what about the word "anguish?" Or what about the usage of metaphors? :huh:

spin

Why you don't refer to the Greek as you should. It is why you don't understand the problem.

As I said in my last post:

Here's a clue: how does one parse odunwmai?

You were supposed to look at the Greek text and understand that we actually have a verb that should be parsed as a present passive indicative verb in the first singular, which is suitably translated into English as "(I) am tormented".

Why you are making such a mess over this sort of thing is unfathomable. You barged in here complaining that the notion derived from the new testament of people suffering for eternity was preposterous, but under examination your position has wilted and like many people who have come here you've clung to pedantries for want of anything tangible to say. The rich man was being tormented by the flames in hades (not your usual picture of "the grave"), and the experience is presented as a real physical ongoing torment in the text.


spin

makerowner

This is the typical dodge: everything has to be interpreted literally, except if it disagrees with my doctrine, in which case it's a metaphor or an allegory. As for 'anguish', clearly physical suffering can cause emotional/mental pain. The fact remains that the man is described as being tormented by flames and asking for water to cool his tongue. This is clearly physical suffering. What reasoning from the text can lead you to believe otherwise?

Casper

Beats the hell outta me...:huh:

hehe, just had to, Doug

itsamysteryhuh

Well, if it is "suitably translated" (your words above) as "(I) am tormented," then the word "tormented" in that sentence is definitely an adjective (modifies the pronoun "I").

Similar phrases (just as a reference for adjectives that modify a pronoun or noun) where words ending with "ed" are used as adjectives are below (followed by an example of a verb use for each word):

1. I am disgusted (verb use = "She disgusted him with her dirty hands.")
2. I am bewildered (verb use = "He bewildered John with his magic.")
3. I am enlightened (verb use = "She enlightened Matt with her knowledge.")
4. Sherry is amazed ("John amazed her with his singing skills.")

It's really quite simple.