aa5874

EXACTLY.

You make silly claims and then cannot support them.

Examine your claim.

Nowhere in gJohn does it state that DEAD believers will SEE Jesus in heaven BEFORE the return.

Roller

Um... No. I'm sorry but I'll have to go with plain understanding of the word "we" (I almost thought you'll pull out "we passages" from Acts). 1 Thess was written to calm people in Thessalonica who were freaking out because people were dying but the end wasn't coming. Early Christians clearly understood that they are that generation. Not someone 2000 years in the future. Paul writes to them not to worry and that they (together with Paul) will see this end of times. He says to them at the end of chapter 4 "Therefore encourage one another with these words." Notice the "Encourage one another", not someone in distant future.


I know you won't care, but 2 Thess is deutero-Pauline.

His liking of Jesus' resurrection to "First fruits" of the harvest in 1 Cor shows Paul's understanding that the end and the resurrection of others is imminent.

sugarhitman

Oh brother...when Stephen was dying he saw the lord in heaven and said "Lord Jesus receive my spirit". So where was he going? Was it not to be with the Lord..in heaven?

sugarhitman

Really? Well I wonder why he wrote to his brothers that "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith." 2 Tim. 4

Seems like Paul was preparing for death.


Yeah, I agree many of those believers believed that they would be the generation...but Yeshua told them that not even he knew when He would return..only when certain events occur.....such as the World invasion of Israel (see Zech 12-14 and Luke 21).


Look, at the world's hostility towards Israel since the Flotilla Provocation..and the speed in which plans are being made to divide Israel.

"In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land." Joel 3


"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."



According to these texts its going to happen....current political trends make these texts seem alive.

Roller

You are thinking what every generation since Jesus' death thought. That they are the last ones.

spamandham

I have made the argument on this board many times that the "this generation" phrase in no way suggests that Mark was written within 40 years of Jesus, and posters such as sugarhitman prove the point. Every generation of Christians from the earliest records has believed they are the chosen generation.

sugarhitman

Jesus cannot appear if Israel is not a state...Israel is central to biblical prophecy.

Joan of Bark

From what I've read from scholars, the KJV is a terrible translation, based upon later Greek manuscripts.

... except of course for those Christians who believe Jesus said 'thee' and 'thou' a lot.

spamandham

We both agree that your almighty god is powerless if Jews have not formed a secular republic. Our only point of contention then, is whether or not he is also powerless when they have.

sugarhitman

The KJV is more reliable....almost flawless. Thats why critics often use other bibles to attack the NT and OT rather than the KJV.