Jack the Bodiless

Magus:
...And maybe Jesus claimed to be Jewish as a political strategy. If most of your followers were Jewish, denouncing Judaism wouldn't help your cause too much. It seems very likely that Jesus merely claimed to be Jewish. His actions certaintly don't support that he cared about Mosaic law or Judaism. Even the quotes about him affirming Judaism were in public speeches.

...You see how easy that was?

Perhaps YOU can explain the difference between Hitler and Moses, Magus.

Magus55

It was a known fact that Mary was Jewish, as was Joseph. It was a known fact that Mary was a descendent of David. Jesus was Jewish as a biological fact. There is a difference between being born a Jew, and claiming to follow a specific religion, but never showing it.

French Prometheus

For the umteenth time, WHAT OTHER BOOKS?
Did you read what I replied to Philippe's objection? The Table Talks are no evidence as Toto pointed out at the beginning of this thread.
What's more :
Hitler's words "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" were addressed in private to Gerhard Engel and can be found in the latter's private diary. That's not a public speech.


His actions were in accord with many of Jesus' teachings. Since you apparently didn't read my previous posts to Psalm, let me cut and paste for you :

Yeah, let's look at what Jesus said.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27 (the Greek word katasphaxate is actually much more violent than "slay")

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]." Luke 12:47 (here "servants" is a mistranlation, the word douloi means slaves)

As for Jesus' actions, the episode with the fig tree (Matthew 21:18-22) speaks volumes...

Before using the you-quote-out-of-context defense, you may want to take a look at this past thread : Jesus, the epitome of tolerance? I think not...

And also :

YOU ARE NOT GOD'S PROPHET AND WHETHER PEOPLE ARE CHRISTIANS OR NOT DOES NOT DEPEND ON YOUR OWN DEFINITION.

Hitler believed in God and accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. That makes him a Christian. His behavior was at odds with some of the things written in the Bible. So what? That's what almost every Christian does : pick and choose.
Pick Matt 19:19 and ignore Luke 19:27.
Pick Paul's words in Col 2:16-17 and ignore Jesus' words in Matt 5:17-19.
Pick Lev 18:22 and ignore Lev 19:19.
And the list goes on and on...
Then you make up ad-hoc theology to "explain" your choices and try to pass them off as God's words.


Which excludes almost every Christian but the 7th day Adventists :
Why do most Christians violate the 10 Commandments? (O, ye hypocrites)

Magus55

Whats the reason you don't accept Table talks? Even Atheism web uses that as a reference. Are you just biased? Hitler may have claimed to be Christian during his rise to power, and in his public speeches - to gain approval, but aftering he gained power, he abandoned Christianity.

French Prometheus

Toto's post.

Jack the Bodiless

Actually, it isn't a "known fact" that any of those people existed... but I digress.

I was referring to the religion of Judaism, not the ethnicity.

To get back to the original topic: sure, you may prefer to believe that Hitler wasn't really a Christian, but much the same can be said about ANY historical figure. Personally, I doubt that either Galileo or Leonardo da Vinci were Christians, I prefer them to be atheists.

It has been suggested that Jesus was a Buddhist. If so, then maybe Hitler's values were closer to those of Moses than Jesus was.

The Evil One

Because the supposedly anti-Christian sentiments quoted from it turn out, once you check the original context and the German text, not to be anything of the kind. As has already been pointed out. On this thread.

Magus, of course you're right that Hitler may have been lying about being a Christian. But so might you. So might anyone.

The fact is that Hitler on several occasions claimed to be a Christian and justified his worldview by referring to Jesus' life or Christian teachings. He never claimed to be an adherent of any other religion, or claimed to be an atheist, or espoused any religious doctrine contrary to Christian core doctrine. Furthermore he gave every impression of sincerely believing (incorrectly, I'm sure you'd argue) that his Lord and Saviour would approve of his militaristic, anti-Semitic ideology.

Might he have been lying about his actual beliefs? Of course he might. Do we have any active reason to suppose that he actually was lying? No, we don't.

Anyone who claims to be a Christian might be lying about it. We can either a) believe them all b) believe none of them c) believe those we consider moral and not believe those we consider immoral d) come up with some foolproof criterion we can use to tell people who are actually Christians from people who just claim to be Christians (and I'm sure there are more options...).

If you'd like to have a go at D, you're welcome. I've already explained the problems with that. Otherwise, in the absence of any good reason to suppose decit, I think A is the best option. C, clearly, is indefensible.

French Prometheus

Very good post, The Evil One :thumbs:
Sums up the thread very well.

whichphilosophy

Correct.

I may add some common sense that doesn't take a rocket scientist. There are good and bad people across the spectrum as I've maintained on some other threads. Hitler was a lunatic and it didn't really matter what he beleved in. If someone is instrumental in murdering millions of persons I don't think the fact they support or are against a religion makes them any better.

Bright Life

Hi Magus,

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. This thread has taken off in a whirlwind of replies. Anywho...

Despite your opinion to the contrary, they're still christians.


I'd answer this one, but I don't want to be repetitive. It was addressed in several earlier posts.

If you ever claim to be an atheist, I'll ask you one question: As the definition of an atheist is one who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods, are you honestly saying that you are an atheist? If you say yes, I will have little reason to doubt you, as apostacy is a serious business in your religious construct. As it is, you make no such claim, and therefore, are not an atheist.