Freethought & Rationalism Archive

VoxRat · 07-07-2007, 11:19 AM

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Originally Posted by afdave

Why do you suppose that the King James rendering of the text ... "build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven" ... is correct? The King James translation is not inspired.

Here's the Vulgate version:

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et dixerunt venite faciamus nobis civitatem et turrem cuius culmen pertingat ad caelum et celebremus nomen nostrum antequam dividamur in universas terras

Now, I suppose the Vulgate version wasn't "inspired" either. But, since these independent translations of whatever remnants of copies of copies of these "inspired" originals agree on this point, what more grounds do you have to quibble with this than any other detail? Like people living into their tenth centuries? Or a flood covering the entire earth?

Sauron · 07-07-2007, 11:44 AM

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Originally Posted by Roland

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Originally Posted by The Evil One

How did Noah manage to be super-hygienic when the entire planet was covered in two miles' thickness of mud?

Not just mud, but a world full of decomposing plants and bodies.

Oh, that's easy to explain: the vapor canopy was replaced with a hygiene canopy.

The dirty muddy world had a giant condom wrapped around it.:devil:

07-07-2007, 04:05 PM

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Originally Posted by afdave

1) TOWER REACHING TO HEAVEN? Why do you suppose that the King James rendering of the text ... "build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven" ... is correct?

Well, since Cege provided the NIV version ( which YEC's seem to prefer ) and it says the same thing I have to repeat VoxRat's question. Why are you trying to quibble on this point when you accept the rest of Genesis?

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Originally Posted by afdave

2) POPULATION GROWTH. My father is a Bible Translator for a South American Indian tribe called Wai wai. When he began working with them in 1949, there were about 400 Wai Wais. Now there are about 4000. This is 4% annual growth over 58 years.<snip> Below you will find the same chart except I upped the number of children who reproduce as indicated.

Yes, we're used to the way you operate. Dave, if you are going to assert that there are about 4,000 Wai Wai then how about backing that assertion with something. According to the actual census figures HoverCraftWheel provided the growth rate (assuming your handwaving "about 400" inital figure is accurate, which is by no means certain at this stage) would have been 3.35% (including fractional Wai Wai) annually between 1949 and 2000. Plugging that in with your Flud and Dispersion dates we get a maximum of 9597 people (including babies, young children, pregnant women and geriatrics) in the entire world. Not enough workforce, kiddo. You're still stuffed.

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Originally Posted by afdave

3) SMYTH'S GP DATE IS MORE FIRM THAT HIS FLOOD AND DISPERSION DATES.

I see. So now Smyth is accurate (to 0.01 inches even!) except when you suddenly require him to be rubbery.

Faid · 07-07-2007, 06:13 PM

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but why do you suppose Noah's early descendants did NOT have good hygiene?

Oh, I dunno... Maybe the fact that, after living with every animal in the world for a year, they got stranded without a shelter or any kind of sanitary facilities, clean water, fresh food, in a barren, post-apocalyptic landscape of mud and death? What do YOU think, dave?

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I should think they also knew a lot more than you think did about medicine.

Uh-huh. So? They were in friggin' Armageddon, dave. I know a lot about medicine too: What good would that do, if I was left for dead in the middle of a desert full of decay and death, with no means to apply my knowledge?

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They evidently carried some pretty advanced knowledge with them from pre-Flood times

Did they carry infrastructure with them as well?

But hey, maybe people didn't need hygiene back then, right dave? or clean water to drink and wash themselves, or fresh food to eat- they were that "genetically superior" to us!
I mean, that world before the deluge was a world where rainbows didn't exist- who knows what other wonders it had to show!

Mike PSS · 07-07-2007, 07:28 PM

Over in Dave's thread about the vampiric Methuselah (Oooopss, I mean long-lived) there is a historian Josephus.

He writes the following tale about the post-flood world that could actually help Dave.

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Originally Posted by Mike PSS

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6. Now all the writers of barbarian histories make mention of this flood, and of this ark; among whom is Berosus the Chaldean. For when he is describing the circumstances of the flood, he goes on thus: "It is said there is still some part of this ship in Armenia, at the mountain of the Cordyaeans; and that some people carry off pieces of the bitumen, which they take away, and use chiefly as amulets for the averting of mischiefs." Hieronymus the Egyptian also, who wrote the Phoenician Antiquities, and Mnaseas, and a great many more, make mention of the same. Nay, Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety-sixth book, hath a particular relation about them; where he speaks thus: "There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris, upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the Deluge were saved; and that one who was carried in an ark came on shore upon the top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved. This might be the man about whom Moses the legislator of the Jews wrote."
...

CHAPTER 4.

CONCERNING THE TOWER OF BABYLON, AND THE CONFUSION OF TONGUES.

1. Now the sons of Noah were three, - Shem, Japhet, and Ham, born one hundred years before the Deluge. These first of all descended from the mountains into the plains, and fixed their habitation there; and persuaded others who were greatly afraid of the lower grounds on account of the flood, and so were very loath to come down from the higher places, to venture to follow their examples. Now the plain in which they first dwelt was called Shinar. God also commanded them to send colonies abroad, for the thorough peopling of the earth, that they might not raise seditions among themselves, but might cultivate a great part of the earth, and enjoy its fruits after a plentiful manner. But they were so ill instructed that they did not obey God; for which reason they fell into calamities, and were made sensible, by experience, of what sin they had been guilty: for when they flourished with a numerous youth, God admonished them again to send out colonies; but they, imagining the prosperity they enjoyed was not derived from the favor of God, but supposing that their own power was the proper cause of the plentiful condition they were in, did not obey him. Nay, they added to this their disobedience to the Divine will, the suspicion that they were therefore ordered to send out separate colonies, that, being divided asunder, they might the more easily be Oppressed.
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-1.htm

So it looks like there were OTHER people who survived the flood in Armenia by climbing to a higher place.

So maybe Dave would like to use the texts of Josephus to claim a larger starting population post-flood because of these "survivors in the hills" in Armenia.

The text continues on how Nimrod, grandson of Ham, was the builder of the Tower of Babel. A short read, but instructive.

I say let's use the history of Josephus to establish the population. What say you Dave?

ericmurphy · 07-07-2007, 07:59 PM

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Originally Posted by afdave

1) TOWER REACHING TO HEAVEN? Why do you suppose that the King James rendering of the text ... "build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven" ... is correct? The King James translation is not inspired. Adam Clarke, well known 19th century Bible commentator, has this to say about this passage ...

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Verse 4. Let us build us a city and a tower] On this subject there have been various conjectures. Mr. Hutchinson supposed that the design of the builders was to erect a temple to the host of heaven-the sun, moon, planets, &c.; and, to support this interpretation, he says [Hebrew characters] verosho bashshamayim should be translated, not, whose top may reach unto heaven, for there is nothing for may reach in the Hebrew, but its head or summit to the heavens, i.e. to the heavenly bodies

So we really cannot say for sure that it was a massive structure like the Great Pyramid.

Then why Babel, Dave? Why was God so concerned about the building of this suddenly-not-very-significant "tower" (maybe more like a footstool? or maybe a stepladder?) that he dispersed all living humans to the four corners (I'm not being literal here, Dave) of the globe and scramble their brains so they couldn't understand each other?

Just how insecure was this petty tyrant of yours, whom you worship so obsequiously?

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2) POPULATION GROWTH. My father is a Bible Translator for a South American Indian tribe called Wai wai. When he began working with them in 1949, there were about 400 Wai Wais. Now there are about 4000. This is 4% annual growth over 58 years.

We're talking global population growth. You're not. We're talking population growth into a planet that is devoid of supporting infrastructure—no crops, no animals beyond what was on the ark (and Noah and his family cannot have eaten them—can you see why?), no soil. You're not.

If you and your wife have two kids in the first four years of your marriage, what does that make your population growth during that time, Dave? 100%, right? How far into time and space can you extrapolate that figure?

ericmurphy · 07-07-2007, 08:02 PM

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Originally Posted by afdave

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Originally Posted by Pappy Jack

And what was the growth rate (if any) in the preceding 58 years? The preceding 100 years? Historically? Perhaps 20th Century technology and medicines had something to do with the population growth? Perhaps changes in pre- and post-natal care? Perhaps changes in hygiene? Perhaps more inter-marriages increasing the number of couples of child-bearing age? What resources have the Brazilian and Guyanan authorities put into supporting the Wai wai? Give us a clue as to what underlay this apparent increase in population. How does any of this relate in any way to your mythical 8 Flud survivors who had none of the above? Why not post a model based on these figures for Ancient Egypt:

Child mortality to age 5 = c. 45%
Av life expectancy at birth = 20-30 years
Av age at death (adults) = 30-40 years (25-35 for women)
Pop growth rate = 0.1%

I don't know about their history prior to my father. Yes, my father introduced good hygiene to the Wai wais, but why do you suppose Noah's early descendants did NOT have good hygiene? I should think they also knew a lot more than you think did about medicine. They evidently carried some pretty advanced knowledge with them from pre-Flood times. Woolley excavating at Ur found some pretty advanced stuff--medical texts, scientific texts, astronomical texts, schools, etc. Skeptics who frequent these boards seem to have the odd view that man's cultural development was Dumb->Less Dumb->Fairly Smart->Really Smart, the "Dumb" starting about 5000 ya and the "Really Smart" being the Modern Era. Well ... I don't think that squares with the evidence.

Dave, I can't help but note you completely failed to address Pappy Jack's figures for population statistics in ancient Egypt, despite the fact that you quoted them in your response. Was this just an oversight?

07-07-2007, 09:20 PM

Pappy Jack's population growth figures are interesting in light of what I found on this page: http://www.joshuaproject.net/peoples.php?rop3=110631

Note that the total Wai Wai population in all countries is listed as about 400, not 4,000.

Then there's this from UNESCO, which gives total Wai Wai population in 2003.: http://www.mona.uwi.edu/dllp/jlu/ciel/pages/waiwai.htm

And this: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=waw

Someone with access might like to get this paper: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...9338358~db=all

Coragyps · 07-07-2007, 09:27 PM

Joshua project? Wouldn't a real Joshua Project be one where you slaughtered every tribe you could find?

07-07-2007, 09:43 PM

Wouldn't want to blow dem trumpets in the rainforest. Nowhere to run when the trees start falling.

Anywayz, it looks as if the total population of Wai Wai Injuns is around 2,000 rather than 4,000. If Dave can back his claim of 4,000 somehow then I'll consider his figure.
Assuming for the moment that UNESCO et al are likely to be more reliable than some other sources I could name, and assuming that there really were only 400 Wai Wai in 1949, we have an annual population growth (including fractional Wai Wai) of 3.03% ( 2,000/400^1/53).
Same as Dave's previous Randy Rooters Table, which gave him around 5,000 people to build the Tower of Babel. Hmmmm.

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07-07-2007, 09:20 PM	#28
mung bean Guest Posts: n/a	Pappy Jack's population growth figures are interesting in light of what I found on this page: http://www.joshuaproject.net/peoples.php?rop3=110631 Note that the total Wai Wai population in all countries is listed as about 400, not 4,000. Then there's this from UNESCO, which gives total Wai Wai population in 2003.: http://www.mona.uwi.edu/dllp/jlu/ciel/pages/waiwai.htm And this: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=waw Someone with access might like to get this paper: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...9338358~db=all

07-07-2007, 09:27 PM	#29
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	Joshua project? Wouldn't a real Joshua Project be one where you slaughtered every tribe you could find?

07-07-2007, 09:43 PM	#30
mung bean Guest Posts: n/a	Wouldn't want to blow dem trumpets in the rainforest. Nowhere to run when the trees start falling. Anywayz, it looks as if the total population of Wai Wai Injuns is around 2,000 rather than 4,000. If Dave can back his claim of 4,000 somehow then I'll consider his figure. Assuming for the moment that UNESCO et al are likely to be more reliable than some other sources I could name, and assuming that there really were only 400 Wai Wai in 1949, we have an annual population growth (including fractional Wai Wai) of 3.03% ( 2,000/400^1/53). Same as Dave's previous Randy Rooters Table, which gave him around 5,000 people to build the Tower of Babel. Hmmmm.

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