Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 09-01-2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

.... Has anyone ever conjectured there may have been a Greek original?

...

No. What would be the point?

Lemme guess. If P would prove Q, then you can prove Q by conjecturing P.

stephan huller · 09-01-2011, 11:48 PM

Yeshu is a diminutive of the Hebrew name Joshua. It if a 'two and a half letter' form of the name Jesus known already to Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book Two). On Irenaeus calling Iota (= yod) a half letter http://books.google.com/books?id=QHU...ter%22&f=false

Sarai · 09-02-2011, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If we are going to get diverted by questions regarding the consistent misplacing of Jesus's life in the rabbinic tradition to the first century BCE it should be noted that this has never satisfactorily been explained by anyone. My explanation is that 'Jannai' is always the king associated with Jesus. It can be either a diminutive of John or Jonathan. The name is also associated as another name of Agrippa in the rabbinic literature. I think this is the only possible explanation - namely that a rabbinic tradition about Jesus's association with Agrippa (= Jannai) i.e. that he lived while the king was alive or knew or was associated with this monarch was misapplied to Alexander Jonathan (= Jannai).

It is worth noting also that the rabbinic literature itself gets confused between the three Jannais in its tradition - John Hyrcanus, Alexander Jonathan and Agrippa. I forget the exact passage but it basically says that one Jannai started off wicked and became good and the other started off good and became wicked.

The Toledoth Yeshu is composed of a number of different reports which are strung together quite haphazardly - some are historical, others wholly mythical.

I don't know if this is of any help to anyone here, but there is a Dead Sea Scroll fragment (4Q448) that is a blessing over "King Jonathan". I have looked at all my DDS resources and there seems to be a consensus that this prayer refers to Alexander Yannai and so dates to the Hasmonean period. However, that seems to be the sole reason for their dating of the fragment. I found no mention of paleographic or C14 dating in any of my books. The DDS scholars all use the presumption "King Jonathan = Alexander Yannai" as the basis for their dating. That seems like less-than-stellar evidence to me.

Hope this is of interest (if not, just ignore!

).

Regards,
Sarai

maryhelena · 09-02-2011, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarai

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If we are going to get diverted by questions regarding the consistent misplacing of Jesus's life in the rabbinic tradition to the first century BCE it should be noted that this has never satisfactorily been explained by anyone. My explanation is that 'Jannai' is always the king associated with Jesus. It can be either a diminutive of John or Jonathan. The name is also associated as another name of Agrippa in the rabbinic literature. I think this is the only possible explanation - namely that a rabbinic tradition about Jesus's association with Agrippa (= Jannai) i.e. that he lived while the king was alive or knew or was associated with this monarch was misapplied to Alexander Jonathan (= Jannai).

It is worth noting also that the rabbinic literature itself gets confused between the three Jannais in its tradition - John Hyrcanus, Alexander Jonathan and Agrippa. I forget the exact passage but it basically says that one Jannai started off wicked and became good and the other started off good and became wicked.

The Toledoth Yeshu is composed of a number of different reports which are strung together quite haphazardly - some are historical, others wholly mythical.

I don't know if this is of any help to anyone here, but there is a Dead Sea Scroll fragment (4Q448) that is a blessing over "King Jonathan". I have looked at all my DDS resources and there seems to be a consensus that this prayer refers to Alexander Yannai and so dates to the Hasmonean period. However, that seems to be the sole reason for their dating of the fragment. I found no mention of paleographic or C14 dating in any of my books. The DDS scholars all use the presumption "King Jonathan = Alexander Yannai" as the basis for their dating. That seems like less-than-stellar evidence to me.

Hope this is of interest (if not, just ignore!

).

Regards,
Sarai

Thanks, Sarai. Very interesting...

I did a quick Google search and found these two links.

Quote:

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea....y/kingjon.html

The King Jonathan mentioned in this text can be none other than Alexander Jannaeus, a monarch of the Hasmonean dynasty who ruled Judea from 103 to 76 B.C.E. The discovery of a prayer for the welfare of a Hasmonean king among the Qumran texts is unexpected because the community may have vehemently opposed the Hasmoneans. They even may have settled in the remote desert to avoid contact with the Hasmonean authorities and priesthood. If this is indeed a composition that clashes with Qumran views, it is a single occurrence among 600 non-biblical manuscripts. However, scholars are exploring the possibility that Jonathan-Jannaeus, unlike the other Hasmonean rulers, was favored by the Dead Sea community, at least during certain periods, and may explain the prayer's inclusion in the Dead Sea materials.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4Q448

4Q448, often called the "Hymn to King Jonathan," is a piece of parchment from among the Dead Sea Scrolls containing two separate short works, part of Psalm 154 and a prayer mentioning King Jonathan.

The only King Jonathan in early Jewish history was Alexander Jannaeus ("Jannaeus" being an abbreviated form of "Jonathan") and it is widely believed that this was the King Jonathan of 4Q448,[1][2] though some doubt has been raised over the identification.[3]

stephan huller · 09-02-2011, 09:09 AM

Yes, I was aware that King Jonathan appears in the DSS. It is from the numismatic evidence that we learn his Greek name was Alexander. Important Jewish people had Greek and Hebrew names apparently. Hence the double name for John Mark and which, when coupled with the persistent traditions which identify him as owning a house in Jerusalem as well as having a presence in Galilee (and Alexandria and North Africa if we accept the Coptic tradition) make him appear to be a very wealthy individual.

maryhelena · 09-02-2011, 09:25 AM

Coin of Alexander Jannaeus (103 BC to 76 BC).
Obv: Seleucid anchor and Greek Legend: BASILEOS ALEXANDROU "King Alexander".
Rev: Eight-spoke wheel or star within diadem. Hebrew legend inside the spokes: "Yehonatan the King".

http://www.jewishcoins.net/ancient-i...-jannaeus.html

Sarai · 09-02-2011, 12:09 PM

Hi MaryHelena and Stephan,

I too saw those tidbits online when I googled looking for a decent photo of the fragments. (Alas, I found no good photos of the fragments themselves.

) It just seems to me it's possible that the "King Jonathan" of these fragments isn't necessarily Alexander Yannai, and without paleographic or C14dating to back up their assertion, the ID of "King Jonathan" is, so to speak, up for grabs.

Regards,
Sarai

maryhelena · 09-02-2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarai

Hi MaryHelena and Stephan,

I too saw those tidbits online when I googled looking for a decent photo of the fragments. (Alas, I found no good photos of the fragments themselves.

) It just seems to me it's possible that the "King Jonathan" of these fragments isn't necessarily Alexander Yannai, and without paleographic or C14dating to back up their assertion, the ID of "King Jonathan" is, so to speak, up for grabs.

Regards,
Sarai

Hi, Sarai

Yes, it looks as though the identification of King Jonathan with Alexander Jannaeus does not go down very well in some circles - understandably so.

Quote:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...1_0_21193.html

Although the king is named "Alexander Yannai" by Josephus and "Yannai the king" by rabbinic literature, his full name was "Alexander Jonathan" (or "Yehonathan") as attested to by his coins. Therefore most scholars think a previously unknown prayer (4Q448) recalls him when speaking of "Jonathan the king." The editors understood the prayer as "for the welfare of King Jonathan and his kingdom." However the meaning of the biblical phrases quoted by the author suggests another interpretation. It is rather a call to God to arise against Jonathan the king so that God's kingdom may be blessed.

It's all a bit of a puzzle re the DSS.

stephan huller · 09-02-2011, 01:57 PM

I am on vacation but I am at loss to see how the Jewish Virtual library citation in any way questions the fact that king Jonathan was also called Alexander. Admittedly I am reading this sitting by a pool in the sun but I am baffled by the argument.

maryhelena · 09-02-2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am on vacation but I am at loss to see how the Jewish Virtual library citation in any way questions the fact that king Jonathan was also called Alexander. Admittedly I am reading this sitting by a pool in the sun but I am baffled by the argument.

Stephan - the quotation is not questioning the identification of King Jonathan in the DSS with Alexander Jannaeus - all it is questioning is the focus or intent of the prayer - in favor of Jannaeus or a call to rise against him.....

Quote:

The editors understood the prayer as "for the welfare of King Jonathan and his kingdom." However the meaning of the biblical phrases quoted by the author suggests another interpretation. It is rather a call to God to arise against Jonathan the king so that God's kingdom may be blessed."

my bolding

Perhaps my wording was not the best - the identification is not questioned in the Jewish Virtual Library citation - what is questioned is the validity of the prayer - positive or negative......

Wikipedia gives a reference to an article by Vermes - which seems to indicate that he has questioned the mention of King Jonathan in the DSS (don't seem able to find the article....)

^ See Vermes, G., "The So-called King Jonathan Fragment (4Q448)" in JJS 44 (1993) 294-300.

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09-01-2011, 11:48 PM	#32
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yeshu is a diminutive of the Hebrew name Joshua. It if a 'two and a half letter' form of the name Jesus known already to Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book Two). On Irenaeus calling Iota (= yod) a half letter http://books.google.com/books?id=QHU...ter%22&f=false

09-02-2011, 09:09 AM	#35
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes, I was aware that King Jonathan appears in the DSS. It is from the numismatic evidence that we learn his Greek name was Alexander. Important Jewish people had Greek and Hebrew names apparently. Hence the double name for John Mark and which, when coupled with the persistent traditions which identify him as owning a house in Jerusalem as well as having a presence in Galilee (and Alexandria and North Africa if we accept the Coptic tradition) make him appear to be a very wealthy individual.

09-02-2011, 09:25 AM	#36
maryhelena Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England Posts: 2,527	Coin of Alexander Jannaeus (103 BC to 76 BC). Obv: Seleucid anchor and Greek Legend: BASILEOS ALEXANDROU "King Alexander". Rev: Eight-spoke wheel or star within diadem. Hebrew legend inside the spokes: "Yehonatan the King". http://www.jewishcoins.net/ancient-i...-jannaeus.html

09-02-2011, 12:09 PM	#37
Sarai Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Chicago Metro Posts: 1,259	Hi MaryHelena and Stephan, I too saw those tidbits online when I googled looking for a decent photo of the fragments. (Alas, I found no good photos of the fragments themselves. ) It just seems to me it's possible that the "King Jonathan" of these fragments isn't necessarily Alexander Yannai, and without paleographic or C14dating to back up their assertion, the ID of "King Jonathan" is, so to speak, up for grabs. Regards, Sarai

09-02-2011, 01:57 PM	#39
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am on vacation but I am at loss to see how the Jewish Virtual library citation in any way questions the fact that king Jonathan was also called Alexander. Admittedly I am reading this sitting by a pool in the sun but I am baffled by the argument.

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