storytime

So it is. But what do you think will become of it in a hundred years?

storytime

According to the story, Jesus empowered his disciples with even more powers than he himself had performed. So why didn't the apostles raise the dead throughout the Roman Empire? Just a few resurrected corpses and Caesar would have made them instant millionaires and caused them to live in paradise because Caesar himself would be resurrected, just like Lazarus. Golden chariots would have been at their disposal. I mean, raising corpses would have had its rewards, don't you think?

storytime

Fictional account, myth in church history. Ever wonder how much BS the church disgarded before the KJV in Protestant reformation came about? I tried reading a Catholic bible once in comparison, a JW version of the bible, Mormon and something about NY gold strike in bars by a fellow called Maccaroni, so I made spegietti for lunch with a salad and tuned in to Oprah.

aa5874

Are you implying that only historical events are found in fragments?

It must be fundamentally obvious and logical that a fragment of itself is not directly related to the veracity of its contents.

David_M

Still ignoring Mark 15 I see. You surely do hate been shown to be wrong.

Moving the goalposts I see. What you asked for was an example of someone who claimed they would be resurrected in 3 days after they died. That is what you got, as I am sure the lurkers can see.

In fact if you had done even a smidgeon of research you would realise that the discovery of their bodies is EXACTLY as Applewhite prophesied. They were going to be given new bodies by the aliens.

Want one where the body disappeared?

Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection
Disappearing body = Claim that ressurrection actually happened.

Now as to whether Jesus's body disappeared or whether people just claimed it disappeared many years later (you do know that we don't have any written records of what happened that are actually contemperaneous to those events don't you?) that is an entirely different question.

If no claims arose that Jesus's body disappeared then Christianity would not look like it does today, or probably even exist at all it would be another failed cult just like so many others that fail after their leader's death. But because those claims were made that confirm what Jesus prophesied the cult survived and prospered.

For Jesus to have existed and made claims he would be ressurrected is not senseless because others have done the exact same thing. All that was needed for the religion to survive after him is that people were taught that it did happen, and christianity today shows that people will indeed believe this.

Reality confirms the people make such claims and that they believe ressurection happens so your evidence does not support your argument until these facts are dealt with.

storytime

I'm saying that myth is found in old fragments. And, it's fundamentally obvious that the bible is a piecemeal of old fragments, a chaotic fractured manufactured mess.

aa5874

But is not this passage found in Mark 15.9 But, thanks for your research. You have provided exactly what I needed. Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate cult are perfect examples of how the Jesus story should have ended.

The Jesus story should have been a complete disaster. Jesus and his disciples should have committed mass suicide and their bodies found rotting after they had received their new alien bodies.

Now, in what way does the suicide of Applewhite and the 38 others and failed prophecy provide any GOOD NEWS to anyone?

Thanks for your research but this story appears to be about a crazy-man named Fuke.

What GOOD NEWS do you have about FUKE after his body disappeared?

You have provided another gem in my favor. Exactly what I need.

If Jesus did exist as human, he would be considered a mad-man or at least crazy-like, he would not have been worshiped as a God, and the Jews would not have asked him to forgive their sins and abandon the Laws of the God of Moses while the Temple was still standing.

It should be obvious to you now that the NT is about a supernatural being not a mad-man like Fuke.

Some claim that Saul/Paul was a contemporary of Jesus and wrote shortly after his body disappeared.

Writers using the name Paul claimed Jesus rose from the dead after the third day.

Galatians 1:1 - You will notice that Paul is claiming that Jesus was NOT really a man and that he did resurrect.

You must remember that Jesus was considered a God, or divine, that is exactly why the resurrection claims were believed, if not Jesus would be another CRAZY FUKE.

Look at Galatians 1.1 again. The Pauline writer admits that he was NOT the Apostle of a man, but of one who was raised from the dead.

And the Pauline writer even claimed that he and over 500 people saw, were witnesses of Jesus in a resurrected state.

But, you have provided two sources that show what happens to humans when they predict their own resurrection.

Fuke and the Heaven's cult were undeniably senseless.

They are considered SENSELESS, stupid and mad, not Gods.

I have not denied that people make irrational claims at all, the HJ is one of those irrational claims when the extant evidence is taken into consideration.

The Gospel story was not possible unless there was a resurrection, but the disciples were in NO position to even claim Jesus resurrected.

1.They ran away when Jesus was arrested.

2. Peter had LIED three times that he did not know Jesus.

3. The body of Jesus had vanished while the disciple were still hiding.

The Jesus story must end in disaster or stupidly like FUKE and the Heaven's Gate cult.

There can be no GOOD NEWS coming from the disciples, they are hiding and shivering with fear, their deaths may be inevitable. Their families, friends wives and children will not see them.

When did the disciples come out of hiding and claimed Jesus resurrected in the very same place where Jesus was executed after considered to be a blasphemer and having failed to resurrect?

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

It must be obvious by now that the Gospels is about a supernatural being, not crazy-men like FUKE or Applewhite.

aa5874

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

If Jesus was just a man, a Jew, in Judea and was behaving crazy-like, similar to FUKE, claiming to resurrect after three days, he may have been beaten to a pulp and declared a mad-man by the procurator and just dismissed.

That may have been the best NEWS Jesus of the NT could expect, BUT CERTAINLY NOT to be worshiped as a God in Judea with the power to forgive sin and for Jews to abandon the Laws of the God of Moses including circumcision.

Josephus wrote about a man named Jesus son of Ananus who behaved crazy-like. Let us see if he was ever worshiped as a God.

Wars of the Jews 6.5.3See http://wesley.nnu.edu

The records of Josephus show when you behave crazy-like in Judea in the 1st century you may be beaten to a pulp and it is almost certain that no Jew, perhaps not even a crazy Jew, would worship you,

Next, we will examine what happened in Judea in the 1st century when you are deemed a false prophet.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

The disciples ran away when Jesus was arrested and went into hiding. His body had vanished.

When will the disiples come out of hiding and began to LIE about the rersurrection of Jesus?

David_M

And in what manner does that even remotely support your argument that I was incorrect when I said:

You said I was making that up. Mark 15 shows that I was absolutely correct. You just will not admit a mistake.


Absolute Bollocks, YOU claimed that is was senseless for someone to claim they would be ressurrected, YOU claimed that no one would ever make such a claim. Applewhite proves you wrong. An HJ could make such a claim.

You still don't get it do you (or you refuse to admit it). One of the main points of your argument was that it would be senseless for an HJ to make such a claim so there could be no HJ. Reality shows that people do make such claims. Reality shows that this pillar of your argument is not valid.

It does not need to provide GOOD NEWS to anyone, you are just trying to avoid admitting that you did not know that other people that Jesus have made claims that they are going to be ressurrected. This destroys any argument that the making of the claim itself is senseless enough to disprove an HJ.

Crazy or not Fuke remains a man who did the exact thing you claimed would be senseless for an HJ to do. That is all that matters, it is further evidence that an argument that an HJ is senseless for claiming he would be resurrected is garbage.

I have the GOOD NEWS that, according to witnesses, Fuke was right and the further GOOD NEWS that this is an example that your proposition does not stand up to the evidence.

Self-delusion is not the way forward. I have provided 2 examples of exactly the event that you claimed would be so senseless as to render an HJ invalid - people claiming they would be ressurrected after death. This is exactly what you do not need as it destroys your pitifully weak proposition.

Or he would be considered a Prophet and the Son of God. Guess which one is still believed?

It should be obvious to you that your argument has been flushed down the drain like the garbage it is. An HJ is not impossible.

People do make claims that they will be resurrected.
Witnesses do make claims that they have indeed been resurrected.
The mental state of any of the people involved is irrelevant, only what people claim and what they believe to be true is what is passed on.

Unsupported by any extant historic documents.

No he wasn't. He was claiming that Jesus was not just a normal man. The whole of Mark is clear that Jesus appeared just as any other man, he could be seen, touched and spoken to. Whether he was actually a spirit clothed in flesh as Marcion thought is irrelevant because by being physically present he is an HJ.

None of which prevents him being an HJ.

Irrelevant, all that writer is claiming is that he is an apostle of someone more than just a man - not that Jesus was not a physical prescence and thus can be a HJ.

Irrelevant, even if that claim were true (which I doubt) it only means that a HJ was indeed resurrected by a supernatural force.

More probably this is completely fabricated to bolster the claim that an HJ was indeed resurrected.

Really, Fuke's body dissappeared and people heard his bell so they believed his prediction was correct. That is exactly in line with what is claimed for Jesus. That destroys your contention that it was senseless for an HJ to claim resuurection.

By you perhaps but not by the followers of Fuke Zen.

It is possible if people had grounds to believe there was a resurrection and the disciples definitely were in a position to make that claim, Peter visited the tomb himself according to Luke 24.

The disciples were only hiding from the authorities not from everyone.

If you consider Mark 16:9-20 contemporary Jesus actually appeared to the disciples and told them to go and spread the Good News.

So what, this has no bearing on what Jesus predicted before his death or what happened after. All it shows is that they were afraid of being caught and dragged in front of the priests and elders.

They weren't in hiding (see below) and anyway were informed of the dissappearance of the body right after it was discovered.

Only if his body was not reported as having dissappeared. And it was.
Only if people didn't report seeing him alive again. And they did.
Only if his body never turned up. And it didn't.

Stop making crap up.

You keep saying that they were in hiding, now is the time to support this. Was Peter "in hiding and shivering with fear" when he was sitting in the courtyard of the high priest (Mark 14:54)?

No he wasn't.

According to John 18 was the other disciple (who was known to the high priest) who went into the courtyard and fetched Peter inside "in hiding and shivering with fear"?

No he wasn't.

According to John 19:26 was the disciple standing nearby to Jesus' mother when he was crucified "in hiding and shivering with fear"?

No he wasn't.

In fact none of the 4 Gospels say that the disciples were in hiding, only that the fled the crowd at Gethsemane. This "in hiding" claim is not supported by the gospels. You are making this up.

Afterwards they were out spreading the GOOD NEWS that Jesus had risen from the dead and was therefore exactly who he hd claimed to be before his death.

According to the Gospels they never were in hiding. You are making this up.

He didn't fail to resurrect because there was no body. That would have been the proof of such a failure and it was not there (doesn't mean he did resurrect just that people could point to this as evidence that he did).

All that is obvious is that you have no real knowledge of what is written in the Gospels.

All that is obvious is that there is evidence that people do make claims that they will be resurrected.

All that is obvious is that followers are more than willing to believe such claims with a body absent.

All that is obvious is that the reasons you provide for claiming a HJ is senseless are not in accordance with reality or what is written in the Gospels.

Cue a reply with no actual counters to these points just a repetition of previous claims.

kcdad

Sorry... stopped reading here.

I did not imagine Jesus (historical or fictional). My faith is not in whether or not the person existed, said what he is reported to have said or did what he is reported to have done... sorry again.
If you are a "true skeptic", I am sure you can go ahead and produce this "evidence" of nonexistence. Or, as you have probably told countless before, you can not prove a negative... or can you?

btw what does "nothing of historical value" mean? Internal evidence is a joke... are you talking about The Bible as evidence?