Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-08-2007, 01:31 PM

This is a complicated issue. Easter is calculated differently by Eastern Orthodox and western Christians.

From here:

Quote:

HISTORY
Easter Sunday is the date of the annual celebration of Christ's resurrection. The aim of the Easter Dating Method is to maintain, for each Easter Sunday, the same season of the year and the same relationship to the preceding astronomical full moon that occurred at the time of his resurrection in 30 A.D.

This was achieved in 1583 A.D. using skill and common-sense by Pope Gregory the 13th, and his astronomers and mathematicians, predominantly Lilius and Clavius, by introducing their new larger (revised) PFM Gregorian dates table. This replaced the (original) 326 A.D. "19 PFM dates" table in the Julian calendar.

Easter Sunday, from 326 A.D., is always one of the 35 dates March 22 to April 25.

From 31 A.D. to 325 A.D. Easter Day was celebrated either:
(a) on or just after the first day of the Jewish Passover (no matter on which day of the week that Easter Day occurred), or
(b) on a Sunday close to or on the first Passover Day.
Both of these methods existed continuously throughout this period.

From 326 A.D. to 1582 A.D. Easter Sunday date was based on the Julian calendar in use at that time. It became defined as the Sunday following the Paschal Full Moon date for the year, using a simple "19 PFM dates" table. Precise information on this subject can be found on pages 415 to 425 of the Explanatory Supplement to the 1961 Astronomical Ephemeris.

The Julian calendar was replaced by the Gregorian calendar in October 1582 to re-align March 20 (and therefore Easter) with the seasons by removing 10 dates October 5 to 14, 1582. This replacement did not occur until later in many countries e.g. in September 1752 in England. See GM Arts Easter Date Calculations for more information. ENGLISH Easter Sunday dates for 1583 to 1752 can be calculated using information near the end of this Easter Dating Method document.

. . .

There's a mathematical formula here.

Asha'man · 04-08-2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBadBad

Can you explain? I'm not familiar with the passover or these passages in the Bible.

Hi BadBadBad,

Passover is the Jewish celebration of another event that never happened. It's the remembrance of story in the Exodus. The Jews were supposedly slaves in Egypt, and Moses was trying to convince the Pharaoh to let them go. (Which is why Moses and Yahweh collaborated in 10 massive acts of terrorism.)

Technically, Passover is the celebration of the 10th plague. The Hebrews were all ordered to slaughter a lamb, and to put the blood on their front doors. When the Angel of Death (yea, that's God himself) then walked the streets killing the firstborn in every household, he skipped ('passed over') the blood marked doors, and thus only killed Egyptians.

Why the Jews would want to celebrate such a horrific act of senseless bloodshed, I have no clear idea. :huh:

BadBadBad · 04-08-2007, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

Hi BadBadBad,

Passover is the Jewish celebration of another event that never happened. It's the remembrance of story in the Exodus. The Jews were supposedly slaves in Egypt, and Moses was trying to convince the Pharaoh to let them go. (Which is why Moses and Yahweh collaborated in 10 massive acts of terrorism.)

Technically, Passover is the celebration of the 10th plague. The Hebrews were all ordered to slaughter a lamb, and to put the blood on their front doors. When the Angel of Death (yea, that's God himself) then walked the streets killing the firstborn in every household, he skipped ('passed over') the blood marked doors, and thus only killed Egyptians.

Why the Jews would want to celebrate such a horrific act of senseless bloodshed, I have no clear idea. :huh:

Being an atheist most of my life, I've had no reason to learn about religious traditions. The more I learn, the more flabbergasted I become.

So, I'm still missing the link between the Jewish passover celebration and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Any help there?

BadBadBad · 04-08-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsamysteryhuh

All you have to do is look it up (click here).

By the way, if you (and I quote) "really don't know if Jesus existed", then why do many of you pretend to know whether or not Jesus existed? :huh:

Happy Easter!

Um that doesn't really answer it at all. Easter seems to be an arbitrary date that has nothing to do with the death of Jesus Christ. My question is that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the sins of all mankind was a pretty monumental date in the history of mankind. On what date did this happen? That is really my underlying question, and your URL didn't quite cut it.

I don't know whether or not Jesus Christ existed. A man that lived 2000 years ago, and did nothing but spawn the corrupt history of Christianity is not a man's life that has any particular value to me. Do I pretend to know that Jesus Christ, the son of God, existed? No I don't have to pretend any more than Christians have to pretend that floating purple dragons don't exist in my backyard. It's a nonsensical story, and I don't have to pretend that nonsense isn't reality.

BadBadBad · 04-08-2007, 08:29 PM

So, what's the story folks. The most monumental day in man's history. The day that Jesus Christ was sacrificed for all of mankind's sins. Seems like kind of an important date. Silly me, I had always been led to believe it was Easter Sunday. What day did that happen on? We did have recorded history back then right?

BadBadBad · 04-08-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionary

This is easy. It's connected to date of the celebration of Passover. It's explicitly mentioned in the Gospels. That doesn't mean it really happened, but that's how they know when to celebrate it.

Can you reference the passage? I'd like to read it.

Toto · 04-09-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBadBad

Can you reference the passage? I'd like to read it.

Several passages:

Quote:

Matt 25:17 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

Quote:

Mark 14
Jesus Anointed at Bethany
1 Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him. 2 "But not during the Feast," they said, "or the people may riot."

...

12 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

Quote:

John 18 Jesus Before Pilate
28 Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.

...
John 19

13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.

Toto · 04-09-2007, 01:07 AM

Chili digression

Asha'man · 04-09-2007, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBadBad

So, I'm still missing the link between the Jewish passover celebration and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Any help there?

Short answer: the Gospels claim that Jesus was killed on the eve of the annual Passover celebration. Why do they make that claim? It's not clear.

Possibility one is that there is some symbolic connection between the two events. Jesus is sometimes likened to the 'slaughtered lamb' that is part of the Passover celebration. However, I can't claim to make sense of this metaphor.

Possibility two is that Jesus was actually killed on the eve of Passover, and it's just a coincidence of dating. Jesus was in town because of Passover, and that's what prompted the events that lead to his death.

There is a section of the Torah, the written histories and commentary kept by Jewish rabbis, that talk about a heretic named Jesus who was killed for blasphemy on 'the eve of Passover'. Unfortunately for the Christian historians, this particular Jesus was killed around 75 BCE, and he was stoned to death and then hanged, according to Jewish law, not crucified. (My personal theory is that this is as close to a real historical Jesus we will ever get, and the Gospels are just a fictional rewrite based on a vague memory of this earlier Jesus.)

Roger Pearse · 04-09-2007, 05:16 AM

Easter (the English-only word for the Paschal festival) commemorates the anniversary of Christ's resurrection. The events took place after the passover, which is calculated on a lunar calendar of 13 months, while we use a solar calendar of 12. This means that it moves around in the solar calendar.

There are a number of ways that a lunar date can be marked in a solar calendar. The methods used by the ancients depended on how closely they wished to follow the Jewish system for doing so. Ca. 150 John's disciple Polycarp came to Rome and while there discussed the date of Easter with Pope Anicetus, as the two were using different systems. No real unanimity emerged during the next couple of centuries.

After the church became legal, it became possible to hold a universal council (First Nicaea, 325 AD), and harmonise practise on this. Generally the church was unwilling to allow the Jews to set the date of the most important Christian festival (understandably, I'd have thought, given the longstanding animosity of the Jews towards them; about to be repaid with interest). The system that they came up with evolved somewhat in the following century, as we can see from the writings of Dionysius Exiguus and ultimately Bede (who in the 9th century in de ratione temporum mentions, in the sole mention in history that an obscure Anglo-Saxon goddess named Eostre had existed with a vernal festival; presumably the old name was used in the vernacular by ordinary people for the new festival).

I hope that helps.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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04-08-2007, 08:29 PM	#15
BadBadBad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: WHERE GOD IS NOT!!!!! Posts: 4,338	So, what's the story folks. The most monumental day in man's history. The day that Jesus Christ was sacrificed for all of mankind's sins. Seems like kind of an important date. Silly me, I had always been led to believe it was Easter Sunday. What day did that happen on? We did have recorded history back then right?

04-09-2007, 01:07 AM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Chili digression

04-09-2007, 05:16 AM	#20
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Easter (the English-only word for the Paschal festival) commemorates the anniversary of Christ's resurrection. The events took place after the passover, which is calculated on a lunar calendar of 13 months, while we use a solar calendar of 12. This means that it moves around in the solar calendar. There are a number of ways that a lunar date can be marked in a solar calendar. The methods used by the ancients depended on how closely they wished to follow the Jewish system for doing so. Ca. 150 John's disciple Polycarp came to Rome and while there discussed the date of Easter with Pope Anicetus, as the two were using different systems. No real unanimity emerged during the next couple of centuries. After the church became legal, it became possible to hold a universal council (First Nicaea, 325 AD), and harmonise practise on this. Generally the church was unwilling to allow the Jews to set the date of the most important Christian festival (understandably, I'd have thought, given the longstanding animosity of the Jews towards them; about to be repaid with interest). The system that they came up with evolved somewhat in the following century, as we can see from the writings of Dionysius Exiguus and ultimately Bede (who in the 9th century in de ratione temporum mentions, in the sole mention in history that an obscure Anglo-Saxon goddess named Eostre had existed with a vernal festival; presumably the old name was used in the vernacular by ordinary people for the new festival). I hope that helps. All the best, Roger Pearse

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