Peter Kirby

In the beginning, every introduction writes, there was the New Testament and the apostles. And everything else follows. Or does it? The failure of scholars to reach much consensus on anything concerning Jesus, the apostles, and the New Testament's origins, suggests that this may be an undesirable approach.

Is it possible that we might start somewhere in the middle of history, and then proceed to work backwards to these much-disputed "beginnings"?

If there is no objection, I would like to start with Photius of Constantinople in the 9th century of our era. Is there any objection to placing this Photius and his writings in the ninth century, or to start our study of Christian origins with this author?

Please consider this thread to supercede all my participation in previous threads on Christian origins. Furthermore, I retract all and everything I have ever said on Christian origins, including the existence of Jesus and everything written on EarlyChristianWritings.com ... in other words, I am 'rebooting' all my studies from this point.

Can we start with Photius? (As it is typical in the study of Buddhism for example to start with authors who lived many centuries after the Buddha's purported time period, I do not think it in any way absurd to start so late. My main concern is to get out of the woodwork the critics who would say this is too early.)

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Peter Kirby

S.C.Carlson

I've been thinking for quite a while of approaching Christian origins by going backwards in time. In one sense, there's no better starting point than the present, as did Douglas R. A. Hare, The Son of Man Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1990), who started with Karl Barth and worked backwards as he investigated the meaning of the phrase "The Son of Man."

If one starts from an earlier yet fairly well-documented period, I suppose one could begin the father of ecclesiastical history himself, Eusebius, the contemporaneous legalization of Christianity, and the Nicene Council. It is at point that the trajectory of a now legal Christianity goes on a very different path than before. Eusebius's influence on subsequent Christian historiography is so profound that his basic interpretation of early Christianity would not be challenged until Walter Bauer. I would begin there.

I suppose Eusebius is at the beginning of Late Antiquity but he is not the only late antique person to preserve information about ante-Nicene Christianity. If you want to work through Late Antiquity backwards, then the last person that could still be considered (at least by some) to belong to this era would be the 6th/7th century John Damascene, who composed the Sacra Parallela. Though much later (after the so-called Dark Ages), the 9th century Photius is also a reasonable candidate because he seems to be the last person to have a greater of knowledge of Late Antiquity than we do today because his library contained books from Late Antiquity that had not yet been lost to us today.

Obviously, the later you start, the more work you have to do.

Stephen Carlson

Peter Kirby

For our reference, The Bibliotheca of Photius is up and online at Roger Pearse's monumental collection of additional Church Fathers.

The works of Photius in Greek are in the TLG CD-ROM and as part of J.-P. Migne's Patrologia Graecae. This is, by the grace of Google, available here (volume 101; Photius extends through volume 104). Please refer to Google for reading and ask me to do any searches needed on the TLG.

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Peter Kirby

Ben C Smith

What does the TLG use as its Photius text? I have the Greek edition of René Henry at hand in hardcopy.

Also, I have been looking for certain volumes of Migne, PG, on Google books for a few weeks now, with mixed results. I cannot locate the first volume of Cedrenus (PG 121), for example. I finally located Nicephorus after a few false starts. I find searching on Google books dicey. Is there some fluid method I am just missing?

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

It uses Henry.

Stephen

Peter Kirby

It uses various editions, which in some cases is Migne, and in other cases is not. It does use Henry for the Bibliotheca.

I don't know a universal method, but I found volume 101 by searching for "tomus ci".

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Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby

Houston, we have a problem.

Most of Photius is written in Greek and has been translated into Latin, and perhaps other languages, but not English.

Comprehending the necessity of learning at least Latin, I request a recess of three weeks as I work intensively through "Wheelock's Latitn."

Thank you.

Considering the necessity of learning Greek as well, I'd like to postpone things until February 2007, when I may emerge from hermitage a master of both Greek and Latin tongues.

I wish.

I may start a new thread that chronicles my travails through Wheelock's Latin, and then through Greek, but I would not imagine it a collaborative learning experience, because I don't think you can do that very well (learn languages) on a forum.

But I will return to this subject (Photius) once I've learned enough Latin and Greek to be dangerous.

Thank you again.

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Peter Kirby

Notsri

Ben, here's vol. 121, though there seems to a bit of a problem: I can't get more than a few pages to load; the others say "image not available."

Ben C Smith

Odd. I searched for that very phrase a couple of weeks ago and could not find it.

Thanks for the link. I get a lot of those image not available notices too. Frustrating.

Does anybody know where exactly in this Cedrenus volume his peculiar version of the Testimonium is found?

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

It is in TLG, Georgius Cedrenus, Compendium historiarum 344,16-345,13. {3018.001} (A.D. 11).

Here's the relevant snippet:

Φησὶ δὲ Εὐσέβιος ὅτι τῷ ιεʹ͵ ἔτει Τιβερίου βαπτίζεται ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστός, συνῳδὰ τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ, καὶ ἐν τῷ ιηʹ τὸ σωτήριον ὑπέστη πάθος, ἐν ἔτει τοῦ κόσμου ͵εφλθʹ. γράφει δὲ καὶ ᾿Ιώσηπος περὶ μὲν ᾿Ιωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ταῦτα “τισὶ τῶν ᾿Ιουδαίων ἐδόκει διολωλέναι τὸν ῾Ηρώδου στρατὸν ὑπὸ θεοῦ καὶ μάλα δικαίαν τιννυμένου δίκην διὰ ποινὴν ᾿Ιωάννου τοῦ καλουμένου βαπτιστοῦ. τοῦτον γὰρ ῾Ηρώδης κτείνει ἀγαθὸν ἄνδρα καὶ τοῖς ᾿Ιουδαίοις κελεύοντα ἀρετὴν ἐπασκεῖν καὶ τὰ πρὸς ἀλλήλους 345 δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ τὰ πρὸς θεὸν εὐσεβείᾳ χρῆσθαι καὶ συνιέναι βαπτισμόν.” περὶ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ πάλιν ὁ αὐτός φησιν ὅτι κατὰ τὸν καιρὸν τοῦτον ᾿Ιησοῦς ὁ σοφὸς ἀνὴρ ἦν, εἴγε ἄνδρα λέγειν αὐτὸν ἐχρῆν· ἦν γὰρ παραδόξων ἔργων ποιητὴς καὶ διδάσκαλος ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἐν ἡδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων· πολλοὺς γὰρ καὶ ἀπὸ ῾Ελλήνων ηγάγετο Χριστός. ὃν πιλάτου σταυρώσαντος οὐκ ἐπαύσαντο κηρύσσοντες περὶ αὐτοῦ οἱ τὸ πρῶτον αὐτὸν ἀγαπήσαντες μαθηταί. ἐφάνη γὰρ αὐτοῖς τρίτην ἡμέραν ἔχων πάλιν ζῶν, τῶν θείων προφητῶν ταῦτά τε καὶ ἄλλα μαρτυρησάντων περὶ αὐτοῦ θαυμάσια καὶ εἰρηκότων. οὗτος ὁ Τιβέριος ἀκούσας τὰ περὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ θαύματα ηβουλήθη διὰ βασιλικοῦ τύπου ἀναγορεῦσαι αὐτὸν θεόν· ἀλλ’ ἀντεπράχθη τούτῳ παρὰ τῆς συγκλήτου, καθὼς οὖν Εὐσέβιος λέγει.

Stephen