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Old 12-17-2008, 08:19 PM   #101
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After Julian you have a series of "easy going" emperors, soldiers, content to fight. They treat non Christians well. They don't enforce orthodoxy.
Dear gentleexit,

When I first read this extract from Vlasis Rassias (Demolish Them!) I was shocked to say the least. What do you know of the following citations?

Quote:
364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those
that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination ("sileat omnibus
perpetuo divinandi curiositas").

Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order
the confiscation of all properties of the pagan temples and the death
penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones.

The Church Council of Laodicea (Phrygia - western Asia Minor) orders that
religious observances are to be conducted on Sunday and not on Saturday.
Sunday becomes the new Sabbath. The practice of staying at home and resting
on Saturday declared sinful and anathema to Christ.

365 An imperial edict from Emperor Valens, a zealous Arian Christian (17th
November), forbids pagan officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370 Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all
the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the
ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed.
The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is
decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius,
Sallustius, Pegasius etc.).

Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire.

372 Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes
and all documents of their wisdom.

373 New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term "pagan"
(pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, "peasants") is
introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.

375 The temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the
Christians.

380 On 27th February Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the
Roman Empire by an edict of the Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that:

"All the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation
should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to
the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter."

The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind".

In another edict, Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the
Christian God and outlaws all disagreement with the Church dogmas.

Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, begins the destruction of pagan temples of his
area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the temple of
goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and
Priskus. The 95 year old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries
and announces "the predominance of mental darkness over the human race."

381 At the Council of Constantinople the 'Holy Spirit' is declared 'Divine'
(thus sanctioning a triune god). On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all
their rights any Christians who return to the pagan religion. Throughout the
Eastern Empire the pagan temples and libraries are looted or burned down. On
21st December, Theodosius outlaws visits to Hellenic temples.

In Constantinople, the Temple of Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the
temples of the Sun and Artemis to stables.

382 "Hellelujah" ("Glory to Yahweh") is imposed in the Christian mass.

384 Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated
Christian, to cooperate with local bishops and destroy the temples of the
pagans in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388 Prefect Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and
bishop 'Saint' Marcellus with his gangs, scour the countryside and sack and
destroy hundreds of Hellenic temples, shrines and altars. Among others they
destroy the temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the temple of Zeus
in Apamea, the temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the temples of Palmyra.

Thousands of innocent pagans from all sides of the empire suffer martyrdom
in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

386 Theodosius outlaws the care of the sacked pagan temples.

388 Public talks on religious subjects are outlawed by Theodosius. The old
orator Libanius sends his famous epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with
the hope that the few remaining Hellenic temples will be respected and
spared.

389 to 390 All non-Christian calendars and dating-methods are outlawed.
Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle
East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, libraries and pagan temples, and
lynch the pagans. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy
persecutions against non-Christian peoples, turning the temple of Dionysius
into a Christian church, burning down the Mithraeum of the city, destroying
the temple of Zeus and burlesques the pagan priests before they are killed
by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to
pagan temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy
persecutions occur all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led
by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock
themselves inside the fortified temple of the god Serapis (the Serapeion).
After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it,
burn its famous library and profane the cult images.

392 On 8th November, Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and
names them "superstitions of the gentiles" (gentilicia superstitio). New
full scale persecutions are ordered against pagans. The Mysteries of
Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop
"Saint" Epiphanius and "Saint" Tychon destroy almost all the temples of the
island and exterminate thousands of non-Christians. The local Mysteries of
goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius's edict declares:

"The ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in
that island."

The pagans revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis,
Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as
part of the Hellenic "idolatry". The Christians sack the temples of Olympia.

395 Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against
pagans. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius
directs the hordes of baptized Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the
Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many
cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura,
Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable
gentile Hellenes and burn down all the temples. Among others, they burn down
the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the
hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 On 7th December, a new edict by Arcadius orders that paganism be treated
as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and
hierophants.

397 "Demolish them!" Flavius Arcadius orders that all the still standing
pagan temples be demolished.

398 The 4th Church Council of Carthage prohibits everybody, including
Christian bishops, from studying pagan books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza,
demolishes almost all the pagan temples of his city (except nine of them
that remain active).

399 With a new edict (13th July) Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining pagan
temples, mainly in the countryside, be immediately demolished.

400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of Dionysus in Vesai and baptizes all
the non-Christians of this area.

401 The Christian mob of Carthage lynches non-Christians and destroys
temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop "Saint" Porphyrius sends
his followers to lynch pagans and to demolish the remaining nine still
active temples of the city.

The 15th Council of Chalcedon orders all the Christians that still keep good
relations with their non-Christian relatives to be excommunicated (even
after their death).

405 John Chrysostom sends hordes of grey-dressed monks armed with clubs and
iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.

406 John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially
support the demolition of the Hellenic temples. In Ephesus he orders the
destruction of the famous temple of Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, "Saints"
Epiphanius and Eutychius continue the persecutions of the pagans and the
total destruction of their temples and sanctuaries.

407 A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408 The emperor of the Western Empire, Honorius, and the emperor of the
Eastern Empire, Arcadius, order all the sculptures of the pagan temples to
be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan
sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions
against the pagans and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the
pagans are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of
protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409 Another edict orders all methods of divination including astrology to be
punished by death.

415 In Alexandria, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyril, attacks a
few days before the Judeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the
famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried
around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally
burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron.

On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of
North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. Emperor
Theodosius II expels the Jews from Alexandria.

416 The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last
pagans of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army
officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423 Emperor Theodosius II declares (8th June) that the religion of the
pagans is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist
in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.

429 The temple of goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is
sacked. The Athenian pagans are persecuted.

431 Council of Ephesus ("Robber Synod"). Promotion for the god-man - "Christ
is complete God and complete man."

435 On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty
for all "heretics" and pagans of the empire. Only Judaism is considered a
legal non-Christian religion.

438 Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the pagans,
incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason of a recent plague!

440 to 450 The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and temples of
Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.
book burning
448 Theodosius II orders all non-Christian books to be burned.

450 All the temples of Aphrodisias (the City of the Goddess Aphrodite) are
demolished and all its libraries burned down. The city is renamed
Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).

451 Council of Chalcedon. New edict by Theodosius II (4th November)
emphasizes that "idolatry" is punished by death. Assertion of orthodox
doctrine over the 'Monophysites' - 'JC has single, divine nature.'

457 to 491 Sporadic persecutions against the pagans of the Eastern Empire.
Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are
executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured
and imprisoned. The proselytizer Conon and his followers exterminate the
last non-Christians of Imbros Island, Northeast Aegean Sea. The last
worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

482 to 488 The majority of the pagans of Minor Asia are exterminated after a
desperate revolt against the emperor and the Church.

486 More "underground" pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued,
tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.
full body baptism 515 Baptism becomes obligatory even for those that
already say they are Christians.

The emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius, orders the massacre of the pagans
in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the temple of local god
Theandrites.

523 Emperor Justin I outlaws the Arian heresy and campaigns to suppress
Arianism everywhere.

528 Emperor Justinian outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch.
He also orders the execution-by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild
beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails-of all who practice "sorcery,
divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the pagans
("the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes").

529 Justinian outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its
property confiscated.

532 The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade
against the pagans of Minor Asia.

542 Justinian allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to forcibly convert the
pagans of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this
crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished
pagan temples.

546 Hundreds of pagans are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor
Ioannis Asiacus.

556 Justinian orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to
find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last non-Christians of the city
and burn all the private libraries down.

562 Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of
gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

578 to 582 The Christians torture and crucify Hellenes all around the
Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last non-Christians of Heliopolis
(Baalbek).

580 The Christian inquisitors attack a secret temple of Zeus in Antioch. The
priest commits suicide, but the rest of the pagans are arrested. All the
prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to
Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the
lions. The wild animals being unwilling to tear them to pieces, they end up
crucified. Their dead bodies are dragged in the streets by the Christian mob
and afterwards thrown unburied in the dump.

583 New persecutions against the gentile Hellenes by Emperor Maurice.

590 In all the Eastern Empire the Christian accusers "discover" pagan
conspiracies. New storm of torture and executions.



Original Source: Vlasis Rassias, Demolish Them!
Published in Greek, Athens 1994
That "after Julian you have a series of "easy going" emperors, soldiers, content to fight. They treat non Christians well. They don't enforce orthodoxy" seems contradicted by Rassias above. Note that I have not yet been able to check all of these citations. A collaborative attempt was started in this forum (possibly more than once) to go through this list. In the end the collaborators could not talk to each other. I have found some of the cites above to be from the Codex Theodosianus, Libanius.

Quote:
Then comes the grand bigot Ambrose, whispering poison in a child's ear.
Dont forget the end-game man in the guise of Cyril. I see him as a political censor of the rumors (and other forms of assertions) regarding the authenticity of the one hundred year olf monotheistic Roman state religion. As far as I can determine, all commentators before Cyril and after Nicea defer to the authority of the three hundred and eighteen fathers. Cyril starts the practice of refering to the prenicene "fathers" as "the fathers of the new state church". Hypatia and the library of Alexandria, etc.

Best wishes,


Pete
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:19 PM   #102
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Dear Toto,

Thanks for that reference. But what really was "the Arian opinion"?

And was the Arian controversy an "internal dispute" of the christians? This is what the christian continuators of Eusebius are trying to tell us but why should we believe them instantaneously without a question or two?
We should not believe them 'instantaneously'. We should believe them because that is the conclusion to which the evidence about the content of Arian doctrine points.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:31 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post

Maybe I missed it. But have you actually documented this claim anywhere with citations from primary sources? If so, could you reproduce them again, please?

If you haven't so documented this so far, will you please do so now? Where is the record of the legislation you speak of to be found?
Dear Jeffrey,

My previously supplied documentation for this claim is as follows. The very first thing that Julian did when he got to the new city of Constantine was to reverse the edicts of Constantine on temple prohibition.
What has that to do with making Christianity illegal or making it so that one "would not find one legal "christian" in 360-363?

Quote:
Julian's edict that restituted all Hellenic cults and permitted all clergy who had been exiled to return, thus reversing all of his uncles religious policies. See Jul., ep. 46 and 32 (ep. 26 and 15 in W.C. Wright, The Works of the Emperor Julian,3 vols., LCL, Cambridge 1962-1969)
Umm, so far as I can see, there's nothing in the text of Epistles 46 and 32 about Christians having to be referred to as Galileans, let alone Julian "legislating that that they be referred to as Galilaeans".

Quote:
In regard to the claim for Julian's legislating that "christians" be legally named by the name of "galilaeans" this is found in Nazanzien Oration 3.
How does this fulfill my request that you cite (i.e., quote) the actual text of this legislation?

Do you have this text available or not? Have you actually read Julian's epistles 46 and 32 and Nazanzien Oration 3? Can you tell me exactly what these texts say?

And is the Nazanzien Narration something you attribue to Julian? Isn't it an Oration of one of the Cappadocians, Gregory Nazianzus? If so, why is it that I can't find any reference within it to Julian, let alone to Galileans and Julian legislating that Christian be known by that term?

Jeffrey
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:37 PM   #104
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After Julian you have a series of "easy going" emperors, soldiers, content to fight. They treat non Christians well. They don't enforce orthodoxy.
Dear gentleexit,

When I first read this extract from Vlasis Rassias (Demolish Them!) I was shocked to say the least. What do you know of the following citations?
I notice that one of them refers to the Emperor Valens as a 'zealous Arian Christian'.
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Old 12-17-2008, 09:06 PM   #105
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What a slap in the face for the three hundred and eighteen fathers of Nicaea!
As slaps go, this was small potatoes, I should think, compared with being told by Eusebius and Constantine that, upon pain of who-knows-what, they must ratify one version of a "strange and new" religion that they'd never heard of, in preference to a slightly different version of this same deeply obscure religion.

Imagine their consternation when the were told that the newly minted texts that covered the tables were actually one, two or three centuries old!

Not only that, to a man they were somehow forced to keep this outlandish plot a complete secret. Then, just to add insult to injury, they were somehow forced to compose utterly fictitious commentaries and reports about the proceedings of the Council.

And there's not a single record of a Nicean father leaking the awful truth of the phony council.

Remarkable, to say the very, very least.

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Old 12-17-2008, 11:20 PM   #106
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When I first read this extract from Vlasis Rassias (Demolish Them!) I was shocked to say the least. What do you know of the following citations?
I notice that one of them refers to the Emperor Valens as a 'zealous Arian Christian'.
There's two things here. How zealous were the "Christian Persecutors" before Theodosius and what is an Arian?

Last first. If you could zap back and say "Hey Valens, you an Arian? Are you zealous about Arius, that dead Alexandrian Presbyter?" What would he say? Go back further. Tap Eusebius of Nicomedia on the shoulder as he's about to enter a basilica in Nicea in June 325. Ask him the same thing. What would he say? I think the proud Eusebius would laugh. Valens. I don't know. Certainly after him, orthodox "church fathers" were relieved but was that because of his zealotry or theirs?

As for these persecutions. You can't just go on laws. There were plenty of severe laws on the books throughout Roman history, riddled with pejoratives. Anti corruption laws, price gouging, on and on and then contradictions. This or that law didn't matter (imperial opinions or edicts were dispatched in enormous numbers). Zealousness of the chief magistrate was key. And the first consistent Christian zealot was Theodosius. Poor young Valens - he had other problems, much bigger problems than whether the father was the son and son was the father.

BTW, looking at your list, we're quibbling over a decade or so. Was there a consistent program of Christian suppression before this self-righteous Spaniard sought to right Rome once and for all?
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Old 12-18-2008, 12:22 AM   #107
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Umm, so far as I can see, there's nothing in the text of Epistles 46 and 32 about Christians having to be referred to as Galileans, let alone Julian "legislating that that they be referred to as Galilaeans".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountainman
In regard to the claim for Julian's legislating that "christians" be legally named by the name of "galilaeans" this is found in Nazanzien Oration 3.
I can find no such reference in Gregory Nazianzen's Oration 3. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310203.htm

The following appears in Sozoman's Ecclesiastical History, Book Five, Chapter 4, entitled "Julian inflicted Evils upon the Inhabitants of Cæsarea. Bold Fidelity of Maris, Bishop of Chalcedon." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26025.htm
He (Julian) further threatened that, unless their temples were speedily re-erected, his wrath would not be appeased, but would be visited on the city, until none of the Galileans remained in existence; for this was the name which, in derision, he was wont to give to the Christians.
Sounds more like name-calling than legislation.

Ddms
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:43 AM   #108
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Default Arianism post Constantine

Responding to Toto's link to Bertrand Russell's "History of Western Philosophy", a text which proposes that the successors of Constantine were "more or less" followers of Arianism,
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleexit
After Constantine, Constans in the west was Orthodox. It was a bone of contention with his brother Constantius, who wavered.
However, according to Wikipedia, Constantine had six children, the eldest of whom, his son, Crispus, was murdered on orders from Constantine. The three remaining sons, Constantine II, Constantius II, and Constans, successively inherited the throne. Constantine II freed Athanasius, and authorized his return to Alexandria. He died three years later in 340, in a military engagement against his younger brother Constans, who then succeeded him, and who also accepted the trinitarian position, contrary to his elder brother Constantius II, who was a staunch supporter of Arianism, earning him the epithet of "heretic" from the trinitarians. Constantius II died of disease in 361, during a military campaign directed against his cousin, Julian, who became emperor on death of the last of Constantine's sons.
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:10 AM   #109
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Writing sarcastically, for a change,
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This explains why his coins featured Sol Invictus up to around 315 CE.
You didn't look at any of the links I provided in my previous post to you. Please do so.

The North American "Buffalo", i.e. Bison, was nearly extinct in 1881, when the herd had shrunk from 50 million in the mid 19th century to only a dozen animals remaining. By 1940 there were fewer than 25,000 animals. Nevertheless, the USA government in that year, minted a coin, a famous coin, which I often saw, as a boy: the famous buffalo nickel. Like the buffalo themselves, these coins are no longer in circulation, but the point is, they were minted over a twenty year period, despite the fact that the animals themselves were no longer relevant to North American society. Whether a coin is introduced or displaced from circulation is not always a function of some particular aspect of social organization. Sometimes coins continue to be produced, because of expediency. Other times, leaders of society in control of the coin producing apparatus, simply admire a particular design, or a particular ideology expressed on the coin. One would err in assuming that Buffalo played an important role in USA society, during the twenty years of minting of that particular coin. The fact that Sol Invictus appears on Roman coins is not, for me at least, dispositive in establishing the religious or political ideology of Constantine. I trust that no one imagines Franklin Roosevelt riding around in his wheel chair, killing Buffalo.
Nice attempt at retrojection.

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Thank you very much for the three links. I had actually looked at them, briefly, and I will go back and reread them, more carefully, but what am I looking for? Athanasius? Woah. Oops.
"[O]ops" is right. That was obviously an extremely brief reading. These were letters attributed to Constantine, all of which were against Arius.


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Old 12-18-2008, 03:32 AM   #110
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What a slap in the face for the three hundred and eighteen fathers of Nicaea!
As slaps go, this was small potatoes, I should think, compared with being told by Eusebius and Constantine that, upon pain of who-knows-what, they must ratify one version of a "strange and new" religion that they'd never heard of, in preference to a slightly different version of this same deeply obscure religion.
Dear ddms,

The choice was to ratify Constantine or Arius. That was the choice, Read the creed. Take a peek at the greek. Arius or the Boss. Take it or leave it. None of the people assembled IMO had ever heard about the newly promoted monotheism in the empire, let alone that they were about to have an official state religion based on the new testament canon. What was that? Who was this dude Jesus anyway? Did he hang out with Apollo? Did he heal with the power of Asclepius? Did he leave footprints? Did he own slaves? Was he an ascetic who followed the precepts of the Buddha?

Quote:
Imagine their consternation when the were told that the newly minted texts that covered the tables were actually one, two or three centuries old!
Imagine their surprise when they learnt directly from Constantine's Oration that the new Hebrew god of the Roman state religion was predicted in the verses of two Roman poets - Cicero and Virgil - who were at least 400 years old. (The proof of the 'authenticity' of the sybil was a fraud twice over).

Quote:
Not only that, to a man they were somehow forced to keep this outlandish plot a complete secret.
The openly socio-political Arian controversy IMO was about the authenticity of the new testament canon and its history. IMO all of the greek academics in the east (100% pagan) were aware that Constantine was a simple minded brigand and robber and warlord. They also were aware, as was Arius, that there was a time when Jesus was not, and that He was made out of nothing existing, etc, etc. It was common knowledge to the Hellenic east. But what could they do about the situation since Constantine had the military?

So IMO Arius wrote the NT apochrypha.

Quote:
Then, just to add insult to injury, they were somehow forced to compose utterly fictitious commentaries and reports about the proceedings of the Council.
The victors were compelled to tell the story of the council from the vantage point of a legitimate enterprise (the new and successful state church). They were forced to ameliorate the charges of fiction to internal conflicts between christian heretics over subtle issues in theology.

Quote:
And there's not a single record of a Nicean father leaking the awful truth of the phony council.
Arius was banished from fathership yet his words made the creed of Nicaea. The record of the words of Arius:
* There was time when He was not.
* Before He was born He was not.
* He was made out of nothing existing.
* He is/was from another subsistence/substance.
* He is subject to alteration or change.
It is quite clear to me that whatever the awful historical truth that was to be associated with these words of Arius (reportedly at the Council), when these words and their truth leaked out of Nicaea, the Arian controversy burned with these same words for centuries. Centuries. That's a remarkable leakage.

Quote:
Remarkable, to say the very, very least.
Yes. Very remarkable.
Best wishes,


Pete
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