Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adam · 10-31-2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I don't think Atwill has any strong followers here, although some think that the parallels he has identified are interesting. You can find some older threads in the archive:

Atwill's Caesar's Messiah and some threads linked there.

Thanks, Toto.
I went through the archives and found out why Joseph Atwill has been inactive here since Nov. 2007. He last posted March 18, 2007 after he had gotten caught plagiarizing and had admitted he does not know Latin or Greek. But Carotta and his Jesus was Caesar came off even worse by being touted by a user Juliana (Joseph Horvath, apparently) who was one of his translators.
Several of the attackers on Atwill later got banned for their harshness, but apparently they correctly picked Atwill as vulnerable.
One of FRDB's best gospel scholars was pro-Atwill back then, but I won't embarrass him now by stating his namej. That was a courageous stand back then for what seemed like amazing parallels between Josephus and the gospels.

Toto · 10-31-2011, 01:15 PM

The claim of plagiarism was thrown out by a rather pugnacious commentator, but it doesn't look like plagiarism in the usual sense.

Adam · 10-31-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The claim of plagiarism was thrown out by a rather pugnacious commentator, but it doesn't look like plagiarism in the usual sense.

I'm glad you clarified that. Atwill did not reply to the charge (perhaps per his frequent "We're done" already directed at that commentator), and he never posted again. Perhaps Atwill was too sensitive to even a mild charge of plagiarism--many of us have too delicate a conscience.

Vorkosigan · 10-31-2011, 05:12 PM

Atwill's ideas suffer from a number of problems. (1) almost none of the parallels he adduces seems very compelling; (2) his position on the Synoptic problem, AFAIK, is Matt first; (3) connecting the document back to the alleged source is impossible (exactly the same problem you have, Adam, with your to-date unsupported claims about who is the source of what gospel tales). On the other hand, Atwill caught something very interesting about the three day motif and the stories after the TF that I blogged on several years ago:

http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...ill-on-tf.html

mountainman · 10-31-2011, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Like any other conspiracy theory, plausibility is a problem.

Simply calling a theory implausible begs the question. What is it about conspiracy theories in general that makes them, in general, implausible?

Conspiracies happen all of the time, of course, but conspiracy theories as we call them (secret, widespread and evil) are generally implausible for the reason that they requires a small group of people to have far more organization and leadership power than could be reasonably expected. They require that all whistleblowers be silenced, for example.

We have abundant evidence that Roman Emperors in antiquity possessed such absolute political power.

Was it a conspiracy by Nero to call forward the Olympic Games, to compete in and WIN ALL EVENTS?

Doug Shaver · 11-01-2011, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

We have abundant evidence that Roman Emperors in antiquity possessed such absolute political power.

So you have said many times, but I have not seen any abundance of evidence yet.

stephan huller · 11-01-2011, 10:51 AM

Oh no. I sense a massive cut and paste effort coming from Pete

aa5874 · 11-01-2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Conspiracies happen all of the time, of course, but conspiracy theories as we call them (secret, widespread and evil) are generally implausible for the reason that they requires a small group of people to have far more organization and leadership power than could be reasonably expected. They require that all whistleblowers be silenced, for example. We can imagine secret conspiracies for just about anything, and they play on our anti-authoritarian mentality, but we kinda need to keep the perspective that people are chaotic and not as easily controlled by other people as we tend to think. When there is a dangerous cult that wields excessive power over its members, it is generally easily perceptible from the outside, because that sort of social engineering isn't easy.

Well, based on what you wrote HJ MUST be a conspiracy theory.

It is IMPLAUSIBLE that a small DEVASTATED group of fishermen who had ABANDONED and DENIED their leader who FALSELY claimed he would resurrect on the THIRD day that they could have reasonably expected to re-organize and fearlessly spread their Blasphemy of Jesus in the very same Jerusalem where their leader was EXECUTED.

Adam · 11-01-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, based on what you wrote HJ MUST be a conspiracy theory.

It is IMPLAUSIBLE that a small DEVASTATED group of fishermen who had ABANDONED and DENIED their leader who FALSELY claimed he would resurrect on the THIRD day that they could have reasonably expected to re-organize and fearlessly spread their Blasphemy of Jesus in the very same Jerusalem where their leader was EXECUTED.

Isn't that the reasoning Christians use to prove Christianity must be God's conspiracy to convert the whole world? They surely could not have done it on their own.

spin · 11-01-2011, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Oh no. I sense a massive cut and paste effort coming from Pete

Jeez, I wish you'd stop giving people ideas. :angry:

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10-31-2011, 01:15 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The claim of plagiarism was thrown out by a rather pugnacious commentator, but it doesn't look like plagiarism in the usual sense.

10-31-2011, 05:12 PM	#14
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Atwill's ideas suffer from a number of problems. (1) almost none of the parallels he adduces seems very compelling; (2) his position on the Synoptic problem, AFAIK, is Matt first; (3) connecting the document back to the alleged source is impossible (exactly the same problem you have, Adam, with your to-date unsupported claims about who is the source of what gospel tales). On the other hand, Atwill caught something very interesting about the three day motif and the stories after the TF that I blogged on several years ago: http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...ill-on-tf.html

11-01-2011, 10:51 AM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Oh no. I sense a massive cut and paste effort coming from Pete

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