Freethought & Rationalism Archive

reddhedd · 05-10-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wads4

I'm disappointed he did not find the Holy grail also.

Dan Brown did that....

igfm_spanky · 05-10-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

The Exodus tells of a shoreline that had the Israelites trapped by the Egyptians on one side and the sea on the other. The Gulf of Aqaba is positioned between the sea and a mountain range that has only one exit. Next, even if you removed all the water from the Gulf of Aqaba you would have gorges that were impossible to cross, some as deep as one mile. However, as luck would have it there is a perfect sand bar that is easily passable which stretches between both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba, the only kind in the region. Then, the sand bar is completely free from coral which would also make travel difficult if not impossible for the numbers of people that Exodus describes. Then come the chariot wheels. The wheels are just the icing on the cake for me.

It's clear that we'll never agree on what counts as evidence.

Nuwanda · 05-10-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Yes, we have thousands of such "missing links" and we have observed one species changing into an entirely different species. Are you not aware of this work?

Really? I had no idea they have lab observations of species changing. Just to be clear, do you mean something like a reptile changing into a mammal? I'd love to see the studies you are speaking of. Where can I see them?

Nuwanda · 05-10-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wads4

Another criticism of Ron Wyatt's claims was that the part of the landscape near the Gulf of Aqaba was highly unsuitable for chariots, being rocky and hilly,--and that therefore it was the "wrong" place anyway.

Not true. If you look at the terrain there is a perfect route of passage carved through the mountains that provide for very easy travel. The only problem is there is only one, which is why it matches the Exodus account. The Bible says that the Israelites were trapped between the Egyptian army and the sea. the Gulf of Aqaba fits the bill perfectly.

By the way, I'm not saying that there is no doubt that this proves the Red Sea crossing story. I'm simply suggesting that there are too many factors that add up to simply dismiss it without an investigation. And whether or not Ron Wyatt is reputable is not the issue. All the evidence is there with or without Wyatt and has been verify by other expedition teams

TomboyMom · 05-10-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Really? I had no idea they have lab observations of species changing. Just to be clear, do you mean something like a reptile changing into a mammal? I'd love to see the studies you are speaking of. Where can I see them?

This is a derail and needs to be moved to E & C.

No, nothing like that, and your quesiton demonstrates a common misconception about the Theory of Evolution.

Each species is just a tiny bit different from its nearest cousin; almost indistinguishable. That one is just a tiny bit different from the next one, and so forth. Eventually you end up with a mammal at one end and a reptile at the other.

Among species such as mammals, the change is generally too slow to occur within a human lifespan, and so has not or rarely been observed. (I'm not sure which, someone more knowledgeable will have to tell us.) Speciation has been observed among more rapidly reproducing species, such as bacteria and up to I think like fruit flies, it has been observed in the lab. There is a famous example called the nylon bug.

Here is a ripoff from another site which I believe is exactly what you are asking for:

Quote:

The most well documented example of the creation of new species in the laboratory was performed by W.R. Rice and G.W. Salt in the 1980s. Fruit flies, Drosophila melanogaster, were bred using a maze with three different choices such as light/dark and wet/dry. Each generation was placed into the maze, and the groups of flies which came out of two of the eight exits were set apart to breed with each other in their respective groups. After 35 generations the two groups and their offspring would not breed with each other even when doing so was their only opportunity to reproduce. This experiment was published in The American Naturalist in 1988; "Speciation via disruptive selection on habitat preference: experimental evidence".

Its from Rational Evolution.

Ubercat · 05-10-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Really? I had no idea they have lab observations of species changing. Just to be clear, do you mean something like a reptile changing into a mammal? I'd love to see the studies you are speaking of. Where can I see them?

There are tons of evidence proving that evolution occurs. (species changing) The evidence of many different sciences concur in this. As I'm sure you're aware, observing species change in realtime is difficult if not impossible, since we've only been studying it for what? 150 years? Of course you could pull a Kent Hovind and make some ridiculous claim that since you've never seen a chimp give birth to a human, than it's a false theory, but then you'd forfeit any claims to being open minded (or honest).

Why don't you go over to E/C and do some reading and questioning. You can learn alot there. My irony meter always breaks when a christian tries to imply that there is insufficient evidence for naturalism, when their only evidence for their own beliefs comes from wishful thinking, emotional endorphin rushes, and happy coincidences.

-Ubercat

05-10-2006, 06:26 PM

OK, derails to E/C aside, let us for the sake of argument assume that whatshisname is right; there really are wheels there, and even go further and assume that we can date them to a historical exodus, that fits in general with the timeline & other details of the bible story. Now, what am I supposed to infer from that?

Am I somehow supposed to become a Yahweh worshipper? Why? Troy and Mycaenae have actually been discovered, along with quite a few chariot remains, and I didn't start worshipping Apollo, Aphrodite & Poseidon... And I bet you didn't either.

Godless Dave · 05-10-2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Because apparently the coral completely breaks down whatever it attaches to after 1000's of years. But what remains is the form of whatever it covered in the first place.

So seeing what's underneath could help confirm its age. There must be other ways of determining the age of coral formations as well.

Wyatt and friends have taken pictures, but they do not appear to have performed an archeological investigation of what they found.

Agemegos · 05-10-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Really? I had no idea they have lab observations of species changing.

Not lab observations. Field observations.

Quote:

Just to be clear, do you mean something like a reptile changing into a mammal?

Certainly not! That is the emergence of new classes, and so far we have only had time to observe populations splitting from one species into two.

Quote:

I'd love to see the studies you are speaking of. Where can I see them?

Start with the Talk.origins Archive:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html

Wads4 · 05-11-2006, 01:50 AM

"However, as luck would have it there is a perfect sand bar that is easily passable which stretches between both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba, the only kind in the region"

A stable sand bar lasting 3500 years on exactly the same spot?-unlikely. They move around and come and go, like sand dunes.

05-11-2006, 01:50 AM	#110
Wads4 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Jersey, U.K. Posts: 2,864	Nuwanda "However, as luck would have it there is a perfect sand bar that is easily passable which stretches between both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba, the only kind in the region" A stable sand bar lasting 3500 years on exactly the same spot?-unlikely. They move around and come and go, like sand dunes.

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05-10-2006, 06:26 PM	#107
cajela Guest Posts: n/a	OK, derails to E/C aside, let us for the sake of argument assume that whatshisname is right; there really are wheels there, and even go further and assume that we can date them to a historical exodus, that fits in general with the timeline & other details of the bible story. Now, what am I supposed to infer from that? Am I somehow supposed to become a Yahweh worshipper? Why? Troy and Mycaenae have actually been discovered, along with quite a few chariot remains, and I didn't start worshipping Apollo, Aphrodite & Poseidon... And I bet you didn't either.

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