Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 01-09-2012, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

History, eh.

It's bad enough when you reply with one liners. But what is this supposed to mean? History is bunk, ala Henry Ford?

That's the simplest interpretation, by a guy who did not die poor. But surely the view that history is the version of events written by 'the winners' is not unknown in this august company? Is it not more scholarly to confine oneself to provable, non-contentious categories?

DCHindley · 01-09-2012, 10:27 AM

Yup, Xulon (tree).

If you can snag an online copy of R. Travers Herford's Christianity in Talmud & Midrash then do so. He noted that the tree likely refers to a stake used to display the dead body of an executed person. The execution would presumably be by the prescribed method (stoning) if at all possible.

While the display of a dead body serves the same purpose as crucifixion, it is only for a day until evening then burial, while crucifixion, which seems to have involved two beams in the shape of a "T", was intended to last for sometimes days. Josephus, who asked either Vespasian or Titus for leave to try and save two of his former rebel companions from their crosses, revived one after being on the cross for a couple days.

Gotta go ...

DCH (on break, oh wonderful and allmighty boss of me)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Unfortunately I am not proficient enough in the Greek alphabet, but I don't think I see there the word stauros.
22 ἐὰν δὲ γένηται ἔν τινι ἁμαρτία κρίμα θανάτου καὶ ἀποθάνῃ καὶ κρεμάσητε αὐτὸν ἐπὶ ξύλου

Duvduv · 01-09-2012, 10:50 AM

What is the Greek word for tree used in the verse from Deuteronomy that I posted?

Toto · 01-09-2012, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Unfortunately I am not proficient enough in the Greek alphabet, but I don't think I see there the word stauros.
22 ἐὰν δὲ γένηται ἔν τινι ἁμαρτία κρίμα θανάτου καὶ ἀποθάνῃ καὶ κρεμάσητε αὐτὸν ἐπὶ ξύλου

The last word is xylou, a form of xylon, which can mean tree or post or any long piece of wood.

Duvduv · 01-09-2012, 12:09 PM

Thank you. I am wondering about the implications of the word stauros being preferred when there is some ambiguity with both, and whether this suggests a conscious choice in reference to the crucifixion or just a random alternative to the use in Deuteronomy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Unfortunately I am not proficient enough in the Greek alphabet, but I don't think I see there the word stauros.
22 ἐὰν δὲ γένηται ἔν τινι ἁμαρτία κρίμα θανάτου καὶ ἀποθάνῃ καὶ κρεμάσητε αὐτὸν ἐπὶ ξύλου

The last word is xylou, a form of xylon, which can mean tree or post or any long piece of wood.

andrewcriddle · 01-09-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

That certainly detracts from the metaphor of the Lamb of God since the Passover sacrifice was considered invalid if any of the bones were broken. That's aside from the confusion between the Passover sacrifice and the goat sacrifice on Yom Kippur required to forgive the sins of the generation. Justin's metaphor was more in line with the distinctions than GJohn.
And of course sacrifices were completely consumed by fire or eating and had no resurrection.The first Nicene Creed was at least able to avoid these complications.

According to John; Jesus was already dead well before sunset and so his legs were not broken, unlike the two thieves crucified with him, whose legs were broken.

Andrew Criddle

DCHindley · 01-10-2012, 04:36 AM

Wait,

Are you saying that Jesus was crucified on a Cylon? No wonder why those artificial intelligences were after mankind, chasing Adamas and his motly crew of survivors across the galaxy. Perhaps ... this is the real meaning of Gnostic myth, which features Adamas prominently!

Naaaaaah ...

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Unfortunately I am not proficient enough in the Greek alphabet, but I don't think I see there the word stauros.
22 ἐὰν δὲ γένηται ἔν τινι ἁμαρτία κρίμα θανάτου καὶ ἀποθάνῃ καὶ κρεμάσητε αὐτὸν ἐπὶ ξύλου

The last word is xylou, a form of xylon, which can mean tree or post or any long piece of wood.

la70119 · 01-10-2012, 06:10 PM

Well, let me lay out what the antenicene fathers have to say about the five-pointed cross:

Quote:

worst were the writings of the early clerics Justin Martyr, Irenaeus of Lyons and Tertulian who described the cross as having five points. And Origen quotes Celsus as describing the cross as a "thorn."

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 91

Quote:

Now, no one could say or prove that the horns of an unicorn represent any other fact or figure than the type which portrays the cross. For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn. And the part which is fixed in the centre, on which are suspended ^[1] those who are crucified, also stands out like a horn; and it also looks like a horn conjoined ^[2] and fixed with the other horns.

^[1] Greek εποχουνται "they ride" which is 3rd plural pres ind middle of ἐποχέομαι "I ride" which is 1st singular pres ind middle of ἐποχεύω "I spring upon, cover, copulate."

^[2]Greek συνεσχηματισμένον "having been shaped into a certain form in conformance with"

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.24.4

Quote:

The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities ^[3], two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails.

^[3] fines et summitates = ends and high points

Tertullian, Ad Nationes 12.3,4

Quote:

Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat.^[4]

^[4] illo sedilis excessu = that / the well-known projection / excess / towering above / deviation / transgression of a seat

Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews 10.2.7,8

Quote:

Of course no one-horned rhinoceros was there pointed to, nor any two-horned minotaur. But Christ was therein signified: “bull,” by reason of each of His two characters—to some fierce, as Judge; to others gentle, as Saviour; whose “horns” were to be the extremities of the cross. For even in a ship's yard— which is part of a cross— this is the name by which the extremities are called; while the central pole of the mast is a “unicorn.”^[5]

^[5] unicornis autem medio stipite palus = "but the pale from the middle of the post is singlehorned." The quote above this is one the worst translations of Latin I have ever seen!

Tertullian, Against Marcion 3.18.3,4

Quote:

For of the antenna, which is a part of a cross, the ends are called horns; while the midway stake of the whole frame is the unicorn.^[6]

^[6] unicornis autem medius stipitus palus = "the middle pale of the post is singlehorned." Again, in the quote is an extremely poor translation of the Latin. But good enough to fool a lot of people!

I think I'll save Origen for later. Digging up all this information on just how perverted Roman crucifixion was is making me ill. (And I used to be into it! Go figure.)

And when the mods give me a Round Tuit, I can go back and add links and show images of ancient epigraphy.

EDIT: Greek Verb Conjugation: Link

Greek ἐποχέομαι: Link (additional links to LSJ, Middle Liddel and Autenrieth lexica in menu within)
Greek ἐποχεύω: Link (additional link to LSJ lexicon in menu within)
Explanation of Pozzuoli graffito: Link (in Italian, hit the translate button) Indicates a fifth point the article called a cornu.

Toto · 01-10-2012, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

...
And when the mods give me a Round Tuit, I can go back and add links and show images of ancient epigraphy.

Make one more post, and you should be able to post links. You only have a limited time to edit your post.

la70119 · 01-10-2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

...
And when the mods give me a Round Tuit, I can go back and add links and show images of ancient epigraphy.

Make one more post, and you should be able to post links. You only have a limited time to edit your post.

Then this one should be good enough.

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01-09-2012, 10:50 AM	#33
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	What is the Greek word for tree used in the verse from Deuteronomy that I posted?

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