A Stable Flux

I think despite this being a non-belief orientated forum it would (or should) be an ok place to ask about New Testament and Jesus literature. Suggestions about a good introduction to the subject matter I would of liked to see. Especially since the OP asked after the opposing views. The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions by Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright I would consider a good introduction to the topic. They are both capable and acknowledged scholars, Borg being liberal and Wright offering a fairly strong conservative stance.

PhilVaz

Toto << But you might as well avoid Craig - if you have decided you want to believe, he will give you some rationale for your existing beliefs, but he himself says that the source of the beliefs is some internal spiritual experience. If you are not a believer to start with, his arguments are unconvincing. >>

Yeah, if you do not want to become a Christian or remain a Christian, these William Lane Craig debates (MP3 audio) are especially unconvincing. Listen to them all and hear how unconvincing he was against Frank Zindler, Peter Atkins, Victor Stenger, Gerd Ludemann, Hector Avalos, John Dominic Crossan, and the rest. Totally unconvincing in the extreme.

Phil P

vid

By the way, I almost forgot (and I believe most people here will join me in this) to congratulate you about seeking evidence to solve a matter. Immediately as you accept evidence as lead to solve a dispute, you are on a track that we all appreciate here. Please, keep on seeking evidence for any opinion you hold. That way, I was able to fix many of my (wrong) opinons held, and I hope i will fix many of wrongly held opinions in the future. Welcome.

thegreatbrain

Thank you all!! I truly appreciate the recommendations/links and will definitely be checking them out within the next few days.

A bit more background information: My desire to research this subject stems from a comment that someone important to me (a strong Christian) made... that the reason for his faith is based on the following: Is Jesus the son of God, and did he die for our sins? YES, because there is evidence for this, and not just from Christian sources. (<= His words, not mine.)

Therefore, when I bring up the questions/issues I have regarding Christianity to this person, he says they are valid questions BUT unimportant in light of the truth of Jesus. Since we know that what the Bible says about Jesus is true, all those other questions can be explored and answered later...

I want to learn more about the facts and evidence for this, the foundation of his faith. I'm interested in hearing both sides and would like to be able to judge the facts for myself.

Again, thank you to everyone who provided recommendations! Feel free to keep 'em coming.

vicjagger

See here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

spamandham

You're friend is flat out wrong. There are no* early nonchristian sources that have jesus being the son of god or dying for our sins.



* There is a short fraudulent passage in Josephus' Testimonium Flavianum that has the Jewish historian Josephus saying something sort of like this, but it's a later fraud. It's generally thought Eusebius inserted it in the 4th century.

vid

I suspect your friend had some vague idea about Jesus mentioned in Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and maybe Jewish scriptures, and that is what he meant.

I know many christians who heard that "Jesus is mentioned in these sources", but they never read them, so they have no idea what is in, and have no idea about various problems with these accounts. Some of them imagine these sources supporting many supernatural claims about Jesus (once I heard these mentioned as evidence for 12 apostles, etc).

My quess would be that your friend heard about these sources, but never actually read them, and he imagined they support notion that Jesus is "son of god".

As was already told, the only source for this notion are writings of some christian sects, from which the current christianity emerged. Writings of other early christian sects contradict this opinion on Jesus.

thegreatbrain

Very interesting, and good to know. Thanks! Are there any books or websites that you know of that specifically discuss the lack of evidence for a supernatural Jesus in other writings or the contradictory evidence found in other Christian sects?

Libanius

Experience tells us much and is evidence, such as, people are dead when they die and do not resurrect. Also, one cannot turn water into wine and feed multitudes on a couple of fish and a loaf of bread. There is no such thing as Superman, Santa Claus, or Magic Saviors. Why would anyone believe there were?

Toto

Did we mention www.jesuspuzzle.com ?