MachineGod

Yeah, I wasn’t thinking at the time about the evidence of trial and error involved in the pyramids.

As far as the shows, that’s why I mentioned them. Usually the science channel and others like it have erroneous representations of information.

I really haven’t dwelled on the Noah’s ark story, so I thought I would plunge in. hehe.

I guess I am so open minded about the possibility because I am still amazed at things like how a 747 can stay in the air. I know the science behind it (I’m an aeronautics and manufacturing engineer), but it still amazes the hell out of me.

I see no reason or argument to justify dismissing the possibility. The type of wood that was said to be used is quite strong, and if it was treated and fabricated, a lamination of the wood would build the strength of such a boat, as well as give it flexibility. (which would be very important). (Like the folding of a blade on a sword which not only strengthens directly, but strengthens more through flexibility)

to Julian

True, but lets not derail the thread.

funinspace

But, but... what about the book "The Twelfth Planet" by Zechariah Sitchin, I read. It said it was non-fiction.

Duvenoy

I rather doubt that even a wooden laminate would work under the pressures of the seas against a hull of those dimentions. It is difficult to describe to someone who has never been there how savage a hurricane or a North Atlantic gale at sea can be.

The sailing ships of the ninteenth century, and these were the strongest wooden ships ever built, all had hulls of multiple, diagonel layers, anywhere from a minium of three to as many as seven or eight. I think that the Great Republic had something like six. And she leaked like the White House at best of times.

Even steel ships will twist a bit in heavy weather beacuse the seas never exert even pressure, especally if they are hitting the hull amidships. Hitting fore or aft, the ship will sag and hog (and creak and groan and pound, and drive nervous seaman apprentices batshit on top of seasick). At 400 feet plus, a wooden vessel with a wide, barge-type hull, with no steerage wouldn't have a, well, prayer.

I read a piece on the ship-building techniques of some Arab fishermen, some time ago. They actually lash the overlapped hull strakes together and to the frame with cordage and calk them with reeds. This method was said to date back beyond bibical times, and it works quite well on these small vessels. It builds a reliable, coastal vessel at a minium cost in material and labor. I think that it is reasonable to assume that this method was known and used in the time of Noah, whenever that was (I've read of doubts, mainly from Ed. Remember Ed? :banghead: ).

Unfortunatly, the Bible fails to go into detail on the construction of the Ark beyond gophers, pitch and cubits and the like. Therefore there is all sorts of space for speculations, none of them sound in the face of what would have to be the wildest and longest storm ever, since our species went to sea. This hints that the Flood was merely a story told, not by seamen, but by farmers and herders, or perhaps merchants who got the little that they knew of it from the lies told by sailors ashore. I've spun a few mydamnself. Throw in a little religious confusion, and you have the Great Flood and a heroic family who saved the world except for everything else. Another Good Yarn!

Edited to add: I've never read The Twelvth Planet. It sounds like a rouser, especally if it's 'nonfiction'. I dearly love a good sea-story.

doov

Sven

If you limit Noah's flood to this region and the animals from there, the ark indeed becomes possible. Weird, strange - but nevertheless possible. The point is: Then no one cares anymore. It's only the concepts of a global flood and all animals included in the ark which are simply ridiculous and impossible.

Asha'man

More than that, a local flood becomes utterly pointless. Why try to destroy all of mankind if you are going to leave 80% of mankind alive? Was it only the middle-eastern man that was evil? And why try to save any animals, when they would just migrate into the flooded region from outside? Noah could have saved himself the whole Ark-building effort if he had just herded his sheep and goats into Tibet for a year and then came back.

For that matter, even with a global flood, why save any animals in the first place? Were they so hard for god to create that he can't replace them in under a day?

Gawen

I was going to go into more detail about this...but...the entire story is just so preposterous and I really don't have the time. A bronze age family simply would not have the knowledge or the means to build such a vessel and it would take more than a lifetime. It would be something akin to a late Roman blacksmith and his family building the hull of a modern battleship.


...and the adventure continues...(now bring me that 'orizon.....lalalalalala...lalalala....and really bad eggs...drink up me 'earties YO HO!)

funinspace

It is interesting reading, but it's not a sea story. It's a ET fantasy story selling itself as nonfiction. It takes Sumerian mythology, and a mishmash of other stuff, and misrepresents Sumerian archeology to arrive at extraterrestrials visiting our planet every 3500 years or so (memory is failing me some at this last point). A doomed 12th planet that was in our current asteroid belt is the source of some of the ET stuff.

DK

Duvenoy

Sea story, ET fantasy, same-o, same-o

Sounds like a read that I might enjoy. thanks!

doov

gravitybow

OK, MachineGod, you're beginning to descend into the absurd. Although you can't "justify dismissing the possibility" in the first sentence, you follow it with an unjustified unknown in the second sentence. Who said, "The type of wood...is quite strong"? Absolutely nothing is known about the gopher wood mentioned in the Bible.

Why are you applying 20th century engineering techniques to a Bronze Age society? So now, Noah not only hewed a handmade boat of wood in a century, but he also laminated the individual pieces? Why not say that gopher wood had all the properties of a laminated wood and be done with it?

That is false. Here's one of many sites that explain:
As far as flexibility goes, blade composition, not folding, produces flexibility (resilience).
Your analogy falls apart.



Right, so you really haven't given the Noah story too much thought.

But...

MachineGod, I graduated from the Air Force Academy (shameless plug ), where I took classes in aeronautical engineering and materials engineering (manufacturing processes, load and failure analysis, lab work, etc.). I'm not an engineer, and I've probably forgotten much more than I ever learned, but you are such an engineer. On what do you base keeping an open mind? Amazement is one thing, but I think that for you to entertain the possibility of a working Ark, you should be doing way better than this.

Seth K

I did some calculations a long time ago on the structural aspects of the Ark. I've lost that notebook, unfortunately. However I remember quite distinctly that Noah's Ark wouldn't even be able to survive even normal seas, let alone stormy ones.

The big problem as you increase the size of a ship to Noah's Ark's scale is that the stress in the structure (that's force / cross-sectional area) increases with size. Force or weight scales with volume, or size^3. Area scales to size^2. Therefore, generally stress scales with size (size^3/size^2). Even with trees big enough for the beams, the failure stress of the wood is still the same, and that limits the size of vessel you can make.