John A. Broussard

I suppose it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

David Mooney

Hi Lee,

Quote:
Gen. 33:13 If they are driven hard just one day, all the animals will die.

David: I don't see how part of a day is reckoned as a whole day and night here. If it means a 24-hour day, then at least part of a day and part of a night must be included to have a day AND a night.

LEE
Well, it could mean either part of the hours of daylight, or some part of the evening hours, or these animals being driven from before sunrise until noon, so wouldn't that imply any part of a day is being called "one day" here?

DAVID
Not that I can see.

LEE
Quote:
Lee: But is it possible that "X days and X nights" was a way of referring to full days, could it have been an idiom?

David: X days and X nights was a way to refer to X days and X nights.

LEE
Well, how about here?

Daniel 8:14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

Now this almost certainly means 2,300 days or parts of full days, but not specifically a period of time starting on an evening, and ending exactly 2,300 24-hour days later.

DAVID
Here, there are 2,300 evenings and mornings being referred to. However, Matthew 12:40 refers to three days and three nights; yet we know thee were only 3 days and 2 nights (at the most) between Jesus' death and resurrection.

LEE
Quote:
Lee: Or when we say "I was there three whole days," that's not meant strictly literally, either, we might have left on the afternoon of the third day, and thus the time was not literally three whole days...

David: no, but if i say "I was there three days and three nights" we know that I was there at least part of three nights…

LEE
Yes, it would mean that in English, but what I meant was that we have a figure of speech that doesn't mean what it means literally, "three whole days" doesn't mean three whole days. Thus "three days and nights" might be a figure of speech in Hebrew, though not in English.

DAVID
Others have labbored long and hard to make this an idiom but there has never been any proof forthcoming that X days and X nights means X days and X-1 nights.

Quote:
David: The Jews, according to their Talmuds, reckoned part of a day as a whole day and part of a night as a whole night.

LEE
Yes, so then maybe part of a 24-hour day could be considered a whole day, and "a day and a night" could have been a way to refer specifically to a whole day? Such as in "there was evening, and there was morning, one day," in Genesis 1.

DAVID
According to the Talmud, a day was an Onah, and a night was an Onah. There were no day and night Onah's. A day and a night Onah did not exist in the Talmud. Any part of an Onah referred to either a day Onah or a night Onah and not a combination of the two. In order to have a day and a night you needed to have at least part of a day AND a night.

Take Care,
David M

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

I'm not sure what you mean here, though…

How so, though?

Yes, but also 2,300 whole days or parts of days, isn't this possible here? Probable, even?

But having two Onahs per day doesn't require a daylight time reference and a nighttime reference for any and all references to some part of a 24-hour day, though (as in Gen. 33:13), this only means that we have one name here for both daylight and nighttime…

Regards,
Lee

David Mooney

Hi Lee,

Lee: Well, it could mean either part of the hours of daylight, or some part of the evening hours, or these animals being driven from before sunrise until noon, so wouldn't that imply any part of a day is being called "one day" here?

David: Not that I can see.

LEE
How so, though?

DAVID
I don't see the evidence that X nights can equal X-1 nights as the apologists claim. There are two things being counted in Matthew 12:40-days, and nights. And there are three of each. I have no reason to believe these are just referring to a generic day, as three of each, day, and night, are mentioned. So whatever kind of days and nights are being referred to, we know thee are at least three of each. If it were referring to just a generic day, then there was no need to throw nights in there as the Jews would use the word "day" without the nights to refer to a common day that might, or might not, include nights. If your day included a day and a night, then you know it had at least a portion of the two. If it didn't mention the nights, then you would not know if the event that happened contained the night with it. That would be open to conjecture.

LEE
Quote:
Daniel 8:14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

Lee: Now this almost certainly means 2,300 days or parts of full days, but not specifically a period of time starting on an evening, and ending exactly 2,300 24-hour days later.

David: Here, there are 2,300 evenings and mornings being referred to.

LEE
Yes, but also 2,300 whole days or parts of days, isn't this possible here? Probable, even?

DAVID
In Daniel, I cannot see how there ae 2,300 "parts of days" being counted. Even though the sacrifices occupy a small portion of the day and evening, there cannot be 2,300 partial days in the count.

Suppose there were seven evening and mornings. How many days would you have? If the first sacrifice occurred on the evening of Saturday night, and the second evening sacrifice occurred on the evening of Sunday night, when would the seventh evening sacrifce occur? When would the seventh morning sacrifce occur?

1st evening sacrifice...........Saturday sunset.............April 16
1st morning sacrifice...........Sunday morning............April 17
2nd evening sacrifice..........Sunday sunset................April 17
2nd morning sacrifice..........Monday morning...........April 18
3rd evening sacrifice...........Monday evening............April 18
3rd morning sacrifice..........Tuesday morning...........April 19
4th evening sacrifce............Tuesday evening...........April 19
4th morning sacrifice...........Wednesday morning....April 20
5th evening sacrifce.............Wednesday evening.....April 20
5th morning sacrifice...........Thursday morning........April 21
6th evening sacrifice............Thursday evening.........April 21
6th morning sacrifce............Friday morning............April 22
7th evening sacrifice............Friday evening............April 22
7th morning sacrifce............Saturday morning........April 23

Here we see 7 evening and morning sacrifces later brings us into the seventh day. There are seven nights and seven days accounted for. So, from 7 evenings (nighfall) and mornings (sunrises) we have seven days and seven nights accounted for. The same is with 2,300
evening and morning sacriifces. 2,300 evening (nightfalls) and mornings (sunrises) later would bring you to the 2,300rd day, witg 2,300 evenings preceding it, in other words, there would be 2,300 nights and 2,300 days.
-------------------------------\
Quote:
Lee: Yes, so then maybe part of a 24-hour day could be considered a whole day, and "a day and a night" could have been a way to refer specifically to a whole day? Such as in "there was evening, and there was morning, one day," in Genesis 1.

David: According to the Talmud, a day was an Onah, and a night was an Onah. There were no day and night Onah's. A day and a night Onah did not exist in the Talmud. Any part of an Onah referred to either a day Onah or a night Onah and not a combination of the two. In order to have a day and a night you needed to have at least part of a day AND a night.

LEE
But having two Onahs per day doesn't require a daylight time reference and a nighttime reference for any and all references to some part of a 24-hour day, though (as in Gen. 33:13), this only means that we have one name here for both daylight and nighttime…

DAVID
When Jesus referred to 3 days AND 3 nights, he was making a distinction between 3 days and 3 nights on one hand and the generic '3 days' on the other. In the entire Bible, whenever days and nights are distinguished from one another in a series (counting) of days, the days and nights are understood to be counted and not just a generic understanding of day. None of the examples you have given show otherwise, and the example of the 2,300 evening and mornings just illustrates my point, i.e., that when evenings and mornings are mentioned, it is referring to literal evenings and mornings. 2,300 evening and mornings from your number one day would occur exactly 2,300 days and nights later. There would be 2,300 nights and there would be 2,300 days.

This is a crucial point. There are NO examples from the Bible that show that X days and X nights means an idiom that means X days and X-1 nights. None. And although there are examples in the Bible where a day is used generically (which I am surprised you haven't adduced them as of yet), there are no examples where whenever a day and night are distinguished from one another in a consecutive count that it means one night less than the number of nights given.

I hope all is well. Take care and be good,

David

lee_merrill

Hi David,

Psalm 55:17 Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and he hears my voice.

But this seems to mean "at any and all times," not to set times of prayer three times a day, praying only at those times, this is, I think, not to be taken as specifying three literal times.

Well, that is your view, certainly! Let's discuss further…

No, I meant 2,300 days, with possibly only parts of whole days for the first and last days.

But the term here is "the sacrifice," not "the sacrifices," indicating that a count of 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices is not necessarily in view.

Well, how about creation?

Genesis 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-- the first day.

Yet this may not mean a period of darkness, followed by a period of light, since the sun and moon are first mentioned on the fourth "day." Yet each is "an evening and a morning."

Regards,
Lee

David Mooney

Hi Lee,

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Mooney
David: If it were referring to just a generic day, then there was no need to throw nights in there as the Jews would use the word "day" without the nights to refer to a common day that might, or might not, include nights. If your day included a day and a night, then you know it had at least a portion of the two. If it didn't mention the nights, then you would not know if the event that happened contained the night with it. That would be open to conjecture.

LEE
Psalm 55:17 Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and he hears my voice.

But this seems to mean "at any and all times," not to set times of prayer three times a day, praying only at those times, this is, I think, not to be taken as specifying three literal times.

DAVID
But, what did Jesus mean when he said he would be in the heat of the earth 3 days AND 3 nights? Did he mean he would be in the heart of the earth an hour the first day, an hour the first night, an hour the second day, an hour the second night, an hour the third night, and an hour the third day? What actually did Jesus mean? What David meant in Psalms may not have meant a consecutive run of time covering several days and nights. David, actually, may have meant something entirely else. Such as he prayed an hour at sunset, an hour (or two) in the morning, and an hour or so in the noon hours. However, if David meant an hour of prayer in each period (evening, morning, or noon) does not mean Jesus was using an idiom that meant X days and X nights meant X-1 days and X-1 nights. The key is to stay focused on what Jesus meant and not what some other writer may have meant in a different context. I doubt anyone would seriously claim that David meant he was praying 24-hours a day, day after day, after day, after day. But when someone says they are too be killed and to be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights there it doesn't stretch credulity at all to imagine he meant three ~consecutive~ days and nights and not a part here, a part there, another part there, and still another part here. If I said I studied the Bible night and day and noon, that would not mean I was awake studying the Bible 24-hours a day everyday. It would mean a portion of those days because context and common sense dictate that. But if I predicted I would spend three days and three nights in a common grave, no one would take that to mean a part of each day and a part of each night. Rather, I would spend some or all the first day and some or all the third night with the nights and days inbetween being full days and nights. I would not step out of the tomb on the second day, stretch, squint into the sun, read a couple chapters out of my favorite book, then return to the tomb, only to reappear at the entrance during the second night to repeat the process.

LEE
Quote:
Daniel 8:14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

Lee: Now this almost certainly means 2,300 days or parts of full days, but not specifically a period of time starting on an evening, and ending exactly 2,300 24-hour days later.

David: Here, there are 2,300 evenings and mornings being referred to.

LEE
Well, that is your view, certainly! Let's discuss further…

Quote:
Lee: Yes, but also 2,300 whole days or parts of days, isn't this possible here? Probable, even?

David: In Daniel, I cannot see how there are 2,300 "parts of days" being counted. Even though the sacrifices occupy a small portion of the day and evening, there cannot be 2,300 partial days in the count.

LEE
No, I meant 2,300 days, with possibly only parts of whole days for the first and last days.

DAVID
Few dispute that partial days at the beginning and ending of a series of days and nights were counted. Those who hold to the Wednesday crucifixion claim that each day and night had to be a full 24 hours but most scholars know this rigid definition is not required. If Jesus' soul went to Hades during the ninth hour on the day before the sabbath then that first day would count as the first day and the night that followed would be counted as the first night. The first night would be a whole night followed by an entire second day. If Jesus exited the tomb shortly past sunrise on day three then that portion of day three would be reckoned as the third day.

Quote:
David: Suppose there were seven evening and mornings. How many days would you have? If the first sacrifice occurred on the evening of Saturday night, and the second evening sacrifice occurred on the evening of Sunday night, when would the seventh evening sacrifice occur?

LEE
But the term here is "the sacrifice," not "the sacrifices," indicating that a count of 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices is not necessarily in view.

DAVID
If I said I ate the Passover for 10 years would that mean since Passover is singular that that the count of 10 years was not necessarily in view? If not, what did I mean when I said 10 years?

Quote:
David: In the entire Bible, whenever days and nights are distinguished from one another in a series (counting) of days, the days and nights are understood to be counted and not just a generic understanding of day.

LEE
Well, how about creation?

Genesis 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-- the first day.

DAVID
God created things during the "light" portion of the day. He called the light day and the darkness night. Since light and darkness are referred to we know that days including day and night are meant and not just a portion of the day. There were six periods of light (day) and six periods of darkness (night) from day one to day six.

Since God created things during the day portion, then followed the evening (night) and then came morning (daybreak), day one. Then, during the daytime portion of day 2 he would create something else, then evening would come, and morning would arrive, day two, and so on throughout the first chapter.

The whole first chapter of Genesis has days beginning during the light period, followed by an evening (nightfall) and morning (sunrise) for the completion of "day one" or "day three" or "day six". The Jews did not get their sunset to sunset reckoning from Genesis 1. That came later, according to tradition, from Abraham, I think, and also Moses when God revealed to him the sacred calendar while he was in Egypt and before they celebrated the first Passover.

LEE
Yet this may not mean a period of darkness, followed by a period of light, since the sun and moon are first mentioned on the fourth "day." Yet each is "an evening and a morning."

DAVID
God created during daylight hours. Then came evening (sunset) and morning (daybreak), day one. So, in the creation account days began during daytime and sunrise would end the previous day. Above I have given a loose translation of the Hebrew according to my Interlinear Hebrew Bible. The days were reckoned differently in the creation account but by the time of Abraham the days were reckoned from sunset to sunset.

Regards,
David

lee_merrill

Hi David,

I agree that that was not what Jesus meant, all I was trying to point out here was that here we seem to have a figure of speech with evening and morning in it, which doesn't mean what the words literally say, such as when we say "three whole days" in English.

It's impossible this could be a figure of speech? Even if David's statement was one?

No one in English!

Well, doesn't that give us an explanation here, then? Because if this means 2,300 days with possibly only parts of days on the first and last ones, and they are called "evenings and mornings," then we have a similar situation to Jesus' statement.


Actually were are told there was evening, and there was morning, not that it was dark, and then light!

But on the first day, he said, "Let there be light"! Which must not have been during the day, or in the daylight, as we would think of it…

Regards,
Lee

David Mooney

Greetings Lee,

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Mooney
Psalm 55:17 Evening, morning and noon I cry out in distress, and he hears my voice.

Lee: But this seems to mean "at any and all times," not to set times of prayer three times a day, praying only at those times, this is, I think, not to be taken as specifying three literal times.

DAVID
It doesn't mean David payed 24 hours a day without a break, it simply meant David cried out throughout the day and night, like the NT says "pray without ceasing". That doesn't mean we should spend 24 hours a day on our knees, only to be in a payerful attitude at all times and when we have special petitions to ask of God as David did in the verses above, we should pay often. However, when Jesus said he would be in the heat of the earth, however. he didn't mean he would be in the heart of the earth part of Friday night, Satuday morning, Saturday at noon, and Satuday afternoon. Jesus was a consecutive period of days and nights in the heart of the earth.

LEE
I agree that that was not what Jesus meant, all I was trying to point out here was that here we seem to have a figure of speech with evening and morning in it, which doesn't mean what the words literally say, such as when we say "three whole days" in English.

DAVID
But it does whebn Jesus says he will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. He identifies the number of days (3) and nights (3) that he would be in the heart of the earth. No time off for smoke breaks or lunch breaks. He was to be in the heart of the earth from the time of his death to the time of his resurrection, so David's idiom refers to an entirely different usage of the language.

Quote:
David: However, if David meant an hour of prayer in each period (evening, morning, or noon) does not mean Jesus was using an idiom that meant X days and X nights meant X-1 days and X-1 nights.

LEE
It's impossible this could be a figure of speech? Even if David's statement was one?

DAVID
Figures of speech are not declared because you can find another figure of speech in the same book. The figure of speech you cited in regards to David is not even close to the "figure of speech" Jesus used. The two are entirely different and discuss different modes of thought. One refers to a prayerful attitude throughout the day and night-the other refers to a visit to the heart of the earth without popping in and out of the heart of the earth. The first one doesn't mention a certain number of days and nights (like, 355 days and 355 nights) while in the case of Jesus we have a certain number of days (3 of each). So, in the first one we do not have an actual accounting of when David began to pray and cry out, morning, noon, and evening but in the case of Jesus we have an example of an exact time reference that doesn't leave us guessing how long he intended to stay in the heart of the earth.

Quote:
David: … if I predicted I would spend three days and three nights in a common grave, no one would take that to mean a part of each day and a part of each night.

LEE
No one in English!

DAVID
And in Hebrew or Greek as well. Now if I spent three days and three nights in Jerusalem, it is possible that I spent parts of each day in certain locations outside the city (such as the Mount of Olives or the Garden of Gethsemane). However, if I was dead and in a tomb during the same time period no one would imagine that I escaped from the tomb periodically to eat, drink, and be merry.

Quote:
Lee: No, I meant 2,300 days, with possibly only parts of whole days for the first and last days.

David: Few dispute that partial days at the beginning and ending of a series of days and nights were counted.

LEE
Well, doesn't that give us an explanation here, then? Because if this means 2,300 days with possibly only parts of days on the first and last ones, and they are called "evenings and mornings," then we have a similar situation to Jesus' statement.

DAVID
Well, as I said, 3 days and 3 nights need not be full 24-hour days. A part of a day and a part of a night bookending two full days and two full nights in between would work quite nicely.

Quote:
Lee: … how about creation?

Genesis 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-- the first day.

David: God created things during the "light" portion of the day. He called the light day and the darkness night. Since light and darkness are referred to we know that days including day and night are meant and not just a portion of the day. There were six periods of light (day) and six periods of darkness (night) from day one to day six.

LEE
Actually were are told there was evening, and there was morning, not that it was dark, and then light!

DAVID
There was darkness in Genesis 1:1, then God spoke light into existence. He called the light day. Then came evening (sunset) and morning (sunrise), day one. That is the way the Hebrew records it. You have a creative act of God for each of the first six days. Following each creative act during the daylight you have a evening that follows and a morning that follows, called day X, then X+1, X+2, etc., so the first daylight peiod was followed by evening and a morning, completing the first day.

Genesis 1:3: God said "Let there be light" and there was light.
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, ...and God divided the light from
the darkness.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night....

Notice so far we have a period of light, called day, which was created to remove the darkness from the face of the earth. God called this period Day. The period of darkness prior to the creation of light was called Night.

Now, after God called the light Day and the darkness Night, something is added to the story. Notice:

Genesis 1:5 "...And the evening and the morning, day one.

So, the evening and the morning followed the daylight period but it wasn't called day one until the evening and the morning had passed. However, this sequence doesn't contradcit what I have been saying about Jesus' statement that he would be in the grave three days and three nights. Three of each means, well, three of each. So, depedning on when the countdown began in the NT, would determine in what period we should look for the resurrection of Jesus.

Quote:
Since God created things during the day portion, then followed the evening (night) and then came morning (daybreak), day one.

LEE
But on the first day, he said, "Let there be light"! Which must not have been during the day, or in the daylight, as we would think of it…

DAVID
When he said "Let there be Light!" that was the beginning of the first full day of creation week. For perhaps the first time, light smiled upon the surface of the planet. Then, evening arrived. It was now dark. Then, morning arrived, the end of day one (and by extension, the beginning of the second day in which God made the firmament [sky]).

Take Care Lee, and remember those seven UNC players who have jumped ship and doomed UNC to a almost certain last place finish in the ACC! I realize these guys have the right to jump ship, but Sheesssh, why did it have to be UNC? Boo-hoo!

lee_merrill

Hi David,

Yes, and David says he will pray "evening, morning, and noon," and yet we must not insist on him meaning he will pray every day at exactly these three times, that he will "cry aloud" every day without fail at evening, and every morning, and each noon.

But do we know that Jesus' statement was not an idiom?

Each evening and morning (literally), in Ps. 55, though! Which corresponds to "each evening and morning for three days" in Jesus' statement.

Yes, but must we insist on the days in Daniel 8:14 containing part of an evening and morning each, too? When you stretch it to 2,300 days, it seems less likely that one evening and morning each is required, only parts of days, any parts of one day, at the start and finish.

Well, there are different views on this passage, the first is that these are literal 24-hour days, only the seventh day isn't said to have an evening and morning! So here we may have an indication that "evening and morning" is a way of saying "one whole day" overall, instead of requiring an evening and a morning. But 24-hour days is the least likely interpretation here, in my opinion.

The day-age interpretation I find more satisfactory, in which case we certainly have "evening and morning" as metaphorically referring to an overall time period, not requiring a literal evening and morning here for each day.

Deja NU! Alas, while I was at Northwestern, they set the record for most losses in football in the Big Ten. In those days, some of the Big Ten teams were actually rather small. But I hope UNC can right their ship again soon, losing seven players would put a dent in any basketball team…

Regards,
Lee

David Mooney

Lee,

this discussion is getting bogged down and boring. I will continue, but I thought it may be a good idea to swap conversion stories. I would like to know what made you into a Christian. Like, how old you were when you became convinced Jesus was the answer, what kind of books you read, what kind of church did you attend, as in fire-and-brimestone variety or something else, was it a large church and did you have conflict with family over your decision to change to a practicing Christian?

I was born into a Christian home and the doctrines of my religion (Baptist until 1974) was inculcated into me at a very early age. I never had doubts about my teaching and accepted Jesus "as my Savior" at age 13 and was baptized. Four years later my parents switched religions dramatically. They ceased observing Sunday and began attending a Sabbath-keeping Church called the Worldwide Church of God, led by the charismatic Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong. The switch was made in the sprong of 1974 and I went along with the switch but doubts entered my mind in the early 1980's about what the church was teaching and in December 1984 I left.

After 3 years of studying the Bible extensively I rejoined the baptist church (to the disappointment of my family) and remained there until September 1989. I left the Baptist Church because I came to the conclusion the Bible could not be trusted.
I was a deist when I left and became an atheist in late 1992 or early 1993.

There's more, but I will relate other details if I feel them necessary.

For now, Good Luck,

David M