Black Leaf

You know, just saying something doesn't make it true...

Why is it rubbish? Because it exposes problems you don't want to see?

gregor2

I'm interested in the Deep Sea Scrolls. Found by Cousteau, I assume.

Besides the Easter challenge, how about the list of commandments given to the rich young ruler; the ways to get to heaven; and the number of feedings.

Peter Kirby

Why are we excluding John? Has it dropped out of the canon?

Your response must be in 24 minutes... just kidding...

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

Yes, I'm afraid it was just canon fodder.

LP675

Lol . They say "If you’ve got it, flaunt it".

LP675

Just missed!

If you think you have a solid alleged discrepancy by all means post it notwithstanding it involves John.

Peter Kirby

I decided to have some fun with a synopsis to see how far I would have to go to run up against problems. Here is what I found on page one.

Matthew has, "Abraham was the father of Isaac... and Ram the father of Amminadab..." (Mt 1:1-4)

Luke has "Amminadab, son of Admin." (Lk 3:33)

Petty? Maybe. But, there it is: Matthew says Ram is the father of Amminadab, while Luke says that Admin is the father of Amminadab.

Defenses? Is it the same Amminadab? Yep, they both say that Nahshon is his son (the son of Amminadab). Perhaps the father had two names? That's an attenuated response, especially since we can get a second contradiction here. Matthew says that Hezron is the father of Ram, the father of Amminadab. Luke says that the line goes (reversing his order, so that we start with great grandfather Hezron): Hezron, Arni, Admin, Amminadab.

If you can believe all this, then, well, "I'm my own grandpa" (so a song goes).

I decided to do a quick search of the Bible for these folks, to see if that sheds light on things.

Numbers refers to "Nahshon the son of Amminadab" a few times. Ruth 4:19 says that "to Hezron was born Ram, and to Ram, Amminadab." That may be Matthew's source of information. I don't know why Luke figured otherwise.

Also, I noticed a discrepancy between some Bible versions. My New Jerusalem Bible and the English Standard Version have those names Admin and Arni. The online NASB has "son of Amminadab, son of Ram." The NIV notes, "Some manuscripts Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni; other manuscripts vary widely." (For those who care about the KJV, it says "Aram" in place of "Ram.")

So, the best alternative would be to claim that the original read "son of Amminadab, son of Ram" in Luke and that it got changed into names otherwise unknown from the Bible. That contravenes the normal rules of text criticism (why change to these strange names?), but I understand that this kind of solution is considered completely satisfactory in the "inerrancy game."

Maybe I will putter around at this again later.

best,
Peter Kirby

Jaguar Prince

One of the most obvious contradictions is that involving the attitude of the two criminals who were crucified with Jesus in the Passion narratives. Matthew (27:44) and Mark (15:32) say they railed and reviled Jesus with the rabble and the priests, while Luke invents the touching last minute conversion of the guy who was nailed on his right*( 23:40-43): "Memento mei Domine cum veneris in regnum tuum..."

*my own educated hypothesis

Peter Kirby

Well, considering the last a draw, I figured I should continue reading the genealogies.

Luke 3:27 has, "son of Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, son of Neri."

Matthew 1:12 has, "Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel."

So, the person under consideration is Shealtiel, the father of Zerubbabel. Who was his father, the question must be asked? Neri or Jechoniah?

Defenses? Perhaps one was the mother and one was the father? Answering this might require looking at the gender of the names and looking at the Hebrew Bible.

1 Chronicles 3:17 refers to "the sons of Jechoniah, the captive: Shealtiel his son." This Jechoniah is male.

Once again, however, Luke's name is not in the Hebrew Bible. I don't know what the gender of "Neri" would be, but the list in Luke is generally masculine.

Interestingly, when you look at the Hebrew Bible, both Luke and Matthew go against it. Matthew and Luke both say that Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel. But at another point in the Bible one finds:

1 Chronicles 3:17-19, "Sons of Jeconiah the captive: Shealtiel his son, then Malchiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jechamiah, Hoshama, Nedabiah. Sons of Pedaiah: Zerubbabel and Shimei." This puts one Pedaiah between Shealtiel and Zerubbabel, making them not father and son but grandfather and grandson.

Defenses? None come to mind.

Perhaps more later. Now I know why this is an activity that some enjoy.

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby

I suppose that it would be redundant to mention that one genealogy has Heli as the father of Joseph and that the other has Jacob. Redundant because it is discussed much more than the previous two just given.

best,
Peter Kirby