Toto

You have not answered the question. What is the issue?

judge

That is not what you asked. You asked what I thought the issue was.
I told you what I thought the issue was. Underlying everything else that is the real issue. That is where something is at stake.
You obviously disagree.
What do you think the issue is?

Toto

I think the issue is that JP Holding has been caught in error and misrepresentation so often that he has picked up one minor error on Carrier's part to blow out of proportion, and is throwing mud with gay abandon.

Doug Shaver

OK, I read it.

I'm with Toto. Carrier, at worst, got a little sloppy. For Holding to construe it as "blatant dishonesty" says a lot more about Holding's own character than it does about Carrier's integrity.

Steven Carr

Jesus was in the ground 3 days and 3 nights.

Holding swears blind that a part of a day is one whole day.

It is only stupid sceptics who wonder how Friday night to Sunday morning can be 3 days and 3 nights.

Holding rails at stupid sceptics who don't realise that a part of a day was reckoned as a whole day and a whole night.



And yet Holding now is claiming that if a criminal is displayed for the entirety of a day, then this means that he is not to be buried that same night, because Josephus claims the display had to be for one whole day.

Unbelievable! The guy is amazing, utterly amazing.

What is Holding's point? If somebody is crucified at the third hour and his body is displayed until sunset, Holding is now claiming that this is not one whole day? What the hell?

Holding bolds the following '....when he has continued there for one whole day, that all the people may see him, let him be buried in the night'

Yes, the guy was buried after the day was over.

Holding appears to think the bodies were displayed over night, so that people could see them at nighttime, by street-lighting , presumably.

Carrier is quite right.

The guy was displayed all day, and then buried at night.

And Holding throws around words like 'treachery' when somebody reads Josephus saying that somebody was exhibited 'one whole day', and takes that to mean he was exhibited for all of the day, and then buried at night.

Even by Holding's ludicrous standards of reading comprehension, this has to be a new low in his inability to understand words.

Here are Richard's words 'Though burial could be legally postponed, for reasons like those just mentioned (as well as for holy days), a body could not remain hanging into the night.

Josephus confirms the seriousness with which this commandment was followed. When he describes the Jewish "constitution" handed down by Moses, he includes these laws:

Let him who blasphemes God be stoned to death and hung during the day, and let him be buried dishonorably and out of sight...[and]...when he has continued there for one whole day, that all the people may see him, let him be buried in the night. And thus it is that we bury all whom the laws condemn to die, upon any account whatsoever. Let our enemies that fall in battle be also buried; nor let any one dead body lie above the ground, or suffer a punishment beyond what justice requires...'

Carrier claims a body could not remain hanging into the night, which confirms the Gospels claim that the body was buried and not left hanging overnight.

Carrier cites Josephus to confirm the Gospel account.

So what is Holding's point?

Steven Carr

APOSTATE ABE
Carrier seemingly used that ill quote to make it seem as though it is historical Jewish law that a blasphemer or a criminal would have a temporary one-day burial.

CARR
Really? Where does Carrier use that quote to make it seem as though a blasphemer would have a temporary one-day burial?

In Holding's head?

In the real world, outside Holding's head, Carrier uses that quote on page 376 of 'The Empty Tomb' to support the claim that Jesus body would not have been left rotting on the cross.

Carrier does not go on to talk about a temporary burial until page 382 of 'The Empty Tomb'

I hope you will apologise for reading a Holding article.

And wash yourself after reading one of them.

Holding is right that Carrier cited Wars of the Jews, when the passages are in Antiquities.

Steven Carr

How could it be misleading?

'Let him who blasphemes God be stoned to death and hung during the day, and let him be buried dishonorably and out of sight...[and]...when he has continued there for one whole day, that all the people may see him, let him be buried in the night'

How could anybody be misled into thinking that blasphemers were buried out of sight so that everybody could see them?


If you have a reading age of more than 5, you will realise that people are not buried out of sight so that all the people can see them.

It would though have been better for Carrier not to have done those ellipses, and quoted the 2 things separately.