John A. Broussard

Yes, yes, yes!

All we have to do is to believe that human suffering is a god-given opportunity for us to do good.

When a baby dies of dysentery, we can praise god for the privilege of providing a burial shroud.

And the malaria that inflicts billions is another blessing bestowed on human kind along with floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and all those other beautiful examples of god's loving grace.

We are indeed fortunate to have such a benevolent, kind, considerate god watching over humanity's destiny.

ELECTROGOD

Why would he want to get off the internet? You are on it. Do you see it as a source of temptation (evil)? If so, why are you on it? Do you see learning the truth about things as being evil? Are you really interested in the truth of things or just content to just accept what you've settled on based on emotions?
What is in the night sky besides the stars which show that we are not the center of the universe. Does Jesus live in the sky?
Make a deal with "god"? Is that legal? Is that the way "god" operates? Do you think I can wrangle a deal with "god" for a billion dollars if I promise to pray to him every day for 4 years?
Did you do what "god" told you to do and give EVERYTHING away to the poor to help them or does living in the richest country on the planet mean that you get to live within a certain standard of living (especially in Tampa Bay)?
Does one HAVE to get emotionally charged up to get an epiphany (a technique used widely by religious organizations to gain converts and keep members).
What is wrong with other beings? Your being has no more to show for being real than they do, including having a man-child born to a woman who supposedly skipped the necessary biological processes needed to reproduce.

ELECTROGOD

Wow, I've seen the possiblity of "god" being omnipotent completely smashed so many times on this board that watching someone trying to assume that it is possible in order to back their position is just irritating. :banghead:

Jack the Bodiless

As God (if he existed) could clear up all these problems in a heartbeat, then we must assume that God (if he existed) prefers this suffering to exist, therefore Johnny should do nothing that might thwart the will of God.

...Well, that was easy.

Of course, individual atheists DO support charitable causes anyhow.
There is no good reason to believe that the J/C God did this either, of course. And many, many atheists and other non-Christians have fed the hungry, healed the sick, and comforted the oppressed.

mata leao

atheists do so little charitable work it is laughable.... sorry, thats just the way it is...why do you think atheists are so despised in our culture? why cant you do better?

Sauron

Interesting assertion - let's see your proof.

Oh, that's right; you're christian; you don't seem to feel the need to back up your statements, do you? Explains your religion, I suppose.

Actually, it's biblethumping robots that are the bottom fo the cultural food chain.

Jack the Bodiless

The two biggest charitable donors in history are both atheists (Bill Gates and Ted Turner), and IIRC atheists contribute more per head than Christians do (probably because of the atheism-intelligence-wealth correlation, and also because a lot of Christian charity goes to support "the Church" in various denominations).

Of course, many of them also work on the "front line" too. It's just that they don't trumpet their atheism as many theists trumpet their religion, and they focus on getting the job done rather than proselytizing. Many of their co-workers probably have no idea that these people are atheists.

As for "despised in our culture": whose culture? Apparently, just American culture, due to the influence of Christian fundamentalism there.

bfniii

the two responses i provided, doctrine of dispensations and systematic theology, are about as common as any ideas in christianity.

the idea is that God is omniscient, that He knew way before.

have you read many systematic theology books?

preferring that it not happen and knowing it would happen are two different things and the former does not preclude the latter. i can't say that God preferred for us to not disobey. i can say that God was prepared to deal with either situation. like i said, if we're talking about an omniscient God, He couldn't have not known.

we were discussing worldviews and my point all along has been that christianity finds meaning in suffering, difficulty and challenges.

but there's no evidence otherwise either. the problem with claiming there is no afterlife is that it requires humans to have a knowledge they aren't capable of having.

we aren't talking about consciousness, we're talking about a soul.

my point is, your beliefs don't make sense to everyone else. those people think you "invent some things out of thin air" for your beliefs. to them, there are many atheists who aren't truly atheists; they really believe in God but are mad at Him because something bad happened like an illness or the death of a loved one thus constituting your people who "behave contrary to the facts they know themselves". additionally, they know that truly claiming there can be nothing supernatural requires humans to have a knowledge they aren't capable of having which also outlines people behaving contrary to the facts.

if i'm not mistaken, what i actually said was that God was able to use the situation to a purposeful and meaningful result, not that He wanted us to disobey.

the two options you present aren't exclusive. both could be true of God. i don't think God had a plan ONLY for the fall, i think He had a plan for the various outcomes that could have happened. that would constitute what we consider to be omniscient.

the story is allegorical in that we all do the same thing every day. we have the choice to accept or reject. why should there not be consequences to that choice?

i don't think it's accurate to say that God wanted us to disobey, even if He did desire for us to have morals. furthermore, we brought this pain on ourselves through our disobedience. that's our fault, not God's.

thank you for your time.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to bfniii: In your opinion, does might always make right, or does might only make right when the supposedly most mighty being in the universe makes promises that you like via human proxies? Why you assume that the God of the Bible created the universe? When I told you that God is not consistently good and compassionate, you said God is not inconsistent. However, God is grossly inconsistent based upon human standards of consistency, love and compassion. Are you suggesting that I attempt to understand God's definition of consistency as it applies to him by using my human understanding? Is it your position that some good always comes from bad things, or that potentilly, good can always come from bad things under certain conditions? If more people gave up Christianity because of Hurricane Katriana than became Christians, was the hurricane a good thing?

Will you please give me an example of a miracle healing regarding yourself or somone who you know?

Do you have any evidence that Jesus healed anyone?

I would never choose to worship a being whose character I deemed to be questionable who refused to visit me in person, in tangible form, whenever I wanted him to.

Random Evil Guy

after reading most of bfniii's posts in this thread, this comes to mind:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

why do people even bother with some religious fanatics....? :huh: