Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 04-07-2008, 01:38 AM

DQ, these are good questions. Most discussion of 'parallels' silently presumes that if some kind of parallel can be demonstrated, if only that there are humans involved in both, then that 'proves' connection, not to say derivation. It's an easy way for the sloppy to invent falsehoods, unfortunately, and for the careless to deceive themselves.

andrewcriddle · 04-07-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DramaQ

......................................
It’s the subsequent discussion that caught my eye though. And please let me see if I have this right: in order to get to story parallels you have to ignore the details and generalize so much that ANY parallels can be drawn. Is that it?

There’s no middle ground here?

Isn’t it possible to find SOME literary borrowing that doesn’t automatically mean story parallelism?

And yes, we can say there are universal themes that show up in all kinds of stories.

But does the existence of universal themes automatically preclude the existence of deliberate parallels?

I remember, in 1979, seeing a movie called “The Legend of the Golden Gun”. Barely two years after “Star Wars” and I watched a T.V. western that sure looked to me like a lot of literary borrowing had occurred.

Or maybe it was the expression of universal themes.

How do we know, short of an author saying “Yes, I fashioned this story after that story”?

What’s the criteria for proving that stories are parallel? Do the similar elements have to be intentional? What if ideas were “borrowed” subconsciously? How do we recognize them when they’ve been repackaged?

As my dad used to say “There’s nothing new under the sun”. But he may have borrowed that from somewhere.

DQ

There are cases where One Author has satisfied a publisher that their work has been plagiarised without an admission by the other Author.

See for example the dispute between the notable Historical novelist Cecelia Holland and the Science Fiction writer William James over the Sunfall trilogy
http://news.ansible.co.uk/a73.html
http://news.ansible.co.uk/a80.html
http://news.ansible.co.uk/a81.html
http://news.ansible.co.uk/a89.html
Conclusion

Quote:

Cecelia Holland's long-standing complaints of being plagiarized in the William James Sunfall trilogy (published by Orbit) have finally taken effect. 'Orbit has capitulated; they gave James until November 1 to respond to the charges, which he has not done, so they are recalling everything, ceasing distribution, and trying to call the matter closed. I am in no mood to consider it closed; I want them to bleed a little, for making me bleed, if only metaphorically..

Andrew Criddle

Gamera · 04-07-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Oedipus (pronounced /ˈɛdəpəs/ in American English or /ˈiːdəpəs/ in British English; Greek: Οἰδίπους Oid�*pous meaning "swollen-footed") was a mythical Greek king of Thebes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus

Quote:

Gnaeus Julius Agricola (July 13, 40 - August 23, 93) was a Roman general responsible for much of the Roman conquest of Britain. His biography, the De vita et moribus Iulii Agricolae, was the first published work of his son-in-law, the historian Tacitus, and is the source for most of what is known about him.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Julius_Agricola

These are very different forms of narrative. Now which one is closer to the Jesus tales?:devil1:

Probably the Agricola, which is an unabashedly romanticization and nostalgic work, using an historical person (related to the author), reconstituted by the author to form a little drama about the Roman Empire and the need for traditional Roman virtues (as against the decadence of the times).

You don't really believe that Tacitus is writing unbiased history, do you? Because if you do, you're in a distinct minority among historians.

Gamera · 04-07-2008, 05:10 PM

And talk about a consciously narrative writer, from Tacitus' History Book 1 (18).

The 10th of January was a gloomy, stormy day, unusually disturbed by thunder, lightning, and all bad omens from heaven. Though this had from ancient time been made a reason for dissolving an assembly, it did not deter Galba from proceeding to the camp; either because he despised such things as being mere matters of chance, or because the decrees of fate, though they be foreshewn, are not escaped18.

Quartum idus Ianuarias, foedum imbribus diem, tonitrua et fulgura et caelestes minae ultra solitum turbaverunt. observatum id antiquitus comitiis dirimendis non terruit Galbam quo minus in castra pergeret, contemptorem talium ut fortuitorum; seu quae fato manent, quamvis significata, non vitantur.

And this is from an "historian" ("it was a dark and stormy night)-- it sounds much more superstitious and consciously narrative than the gospels.

aa5874 · 04-07-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

And talk about a consciously narrative writer, from Tacitus' History Book 1 (18).

The 10th of January was a gloomy, stormy day, unusually disturbed by thunder, lightning, and all bad omens from heaven. Though this had from ancient time been made a reason for dissolving an assembly, it did not deter Galba from proceeding to the camp; either because he despised such things as being mere matters of chance, or because the decrees of fate, though they be foreshewn, are not escaped18.

Quartum idus Ianuarias, foedum imbribus diem, tonitrua et fulgura et caelestes minae ultra solitum turbaverunt. observatum id antiquitus comitiis dirimendis non terruit Galbam quo minus in castra pergeret, contemptorem talium ut fortuitorum; seu quae fato manent, quamvis significata, non vitantur.

And this is from an "historian" ("it was a dark and stormy night)-- it sounds much more superstitious and consciously narrative than the gospels.

("The tenth of January was a gloomy and stormy day....) this doesn't sound superstitious to me, even today I hear of gloomy and stormy days and I even experienced a storm that lifted my roof. It was a gloomy day. And some superstitious people called Christians believed the storm was sent by God.

Gamera · 04-08-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

And talk about a consciously narrative writer, from Tacitus' History Book 1 (18).

The 10th of January was a gloomy, stormy day, unusually disturbed by thunder, lightning, and all bad omens from heaven. Though this had from ancient time been made a reason for dissolving an assembly, it did not deter Galba from proceeding to the camp; either because he despised such things as being mere matters of chance, or because the decrees of fate, though they be foreshewn, are not escaped18.

Quartum idus Ianuarias, foedum imbribus diem, tonitrua et fulgura et caelestes minae ultra solitum turbaverunt. observatum id antiquitus comitiis dirimendis non terruit Galbam quo minus in castra pergeret, contemptorem talium ut fortuitorum; seu quae fato manent, quamvis significata, non vitantur.

And this is from an "historian" ("it was a dark and stormy night)-- it sounds much more superstitious and consciously narrative than the gospels.

("The tenth of January was a gloomy and stormy day....) this doesn't sound superstitious to me, even today I hear of gloomy and stormy days and I even experienced a storm that lifted my roof. It was a gloomy day. And some superstitious people called Christians believed the storm was sent by God.

I don't quite understand why you stopped there and didn't absorb Tacitus's claims about omens and fate, which are superstitious by any standard:

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04-07-2008, 01:38 AM	#61
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	DQ, these are good questions. Most discussion of 'parallels' silently presumes that if some kind of parallel can be demonstrated, if only that there are humans involved in both, then that 'proves' connection, not to say derivation. It's an easy way for the sloppy to invent falsehoods, unfortunately, and for the careless to deceive themselves.

04-07-2008, 05:10 PM	#64
Gamera Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Springs, California Posts: 10,955	And talk about a consciously narrative writer, from Tacitus' History Book 1 (18). The 10th of January was a gloomy, stormy day, unusually disturbed by thunder, lightning, and all bad omens from heaven. Though this had from ancient time been made a reason for dissolving an assembly, it did not deter Galba from proceeding to the camp; either because he despised such things as being mere matters of chance, or because the decrees of fate, though they be foreshewn, are not escaped18. Quartum idus Ianuarias, foedum imbribus diem, tonitrua et fulgura et caelestes minae ultra solitum turbaverunt. observatum id antiquitus comitiis dirimendis non terruit Galbam quo minus in castra pergeret, contemptorem talium ut fortuitorum; seu quae fato manent, quamvis significata, non vitantur. And this is from an "historian" ("it was a dark and stormy night)-- it sounds much more superstitious and consciously narrative than the gospels.

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