WishboneDawn

That's not the bible. that's the Hebrew Scriptures and some early christian writers.

xunzian

And that's not splitting hairs.


Oh, wait, it is.

Solo

I don't think gnostics were wrong; if Jesus did exist he most certainly was one.

It's just that I don't think the gnostic message was as universally accessible. It appears that Galilean proto-movement quickly transferred to an urban setting with middle class (or nearest equivalent) support. If Paul and Mark are any indication, the recruiting aimed at intellectually curious, but not classicaly schooled, core of militants with a distinct bent to spiritualism and occult (the latter which Paul wanted to control but could not). The movement experienced probably a social glass ceiling for a few generations, given the limited appeal of Paul's theologized melancholy among the rich, healthy and powerful, before the emergence of the church as a formidable international organization with independent resourcing. Initially, the movement would be spreading socially downwards and from urban centres to the countryside. As it gathered numbers among the socially lowest strata, the intellectual therapeutic model (through direct individual spiritual engagement and experimentation) gradually lost currency. The participatory mystique of Christ would be reduced to emotional and aesthetic facets, which were accessible to everyone. The priestly hierarchy would control access to the "mystery" through a final authoritative body of texts, a dogma that assured church unity and transportability into new social and cultural settings. Gnosticism did not stand a chance in competition with sacred relics and frank incense.

Jiri

WishboneDawn

The bible is a specific collection of documents created by a specific group of people with specific intent. Saying it existed by the 1st century because some of the documents (and not the rest, not the group and not the intent) existed is rather like saying The Jackson 5 exisited while Mrs. Jackson was still pumping out babies and Tito and Jermaine were still sucking milk from a bottle.

Knupfer

They're the same writings, friend. So nice try. It amazes me how atheists are so desperate to discredit the bible. Do they do that with the Qu'ran and Buddhist's writings? Heavens no. Only Christ threatens them.

Roger Pearse

Specifically which group when? -- I suspect some legends have crept in to this one.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

While I agree with most of your post, I think you realise that as stated this last statement is a gross over-statement? After all, in modern history we have plenty of contemporaneous accounts.

I think perhaps you meant to say that the New Testament accounts of the events of the time of the life of Christ -- the early 30's AD -- were written before most of the main secular accounts of the same period of history. That would be true.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

I was just thinking about this issue of "the gnostics were right".

If we want to suggest that they were, does it mean that we agree with them? If so, do we know what they said? They did, after all, say lots of different things, and indeed made up stuff as they went along.

1. Which gnostics were right? Given that they disagreed on many things.

Of those that most agreed on:

2. Were the gnostics right to say that there are two gods?
3. Were the gnostics right to say that Jesus appeared on earth in a phantasmal body?

If yes, then what evidence can be offered for these propositions?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Knupfer

Again the evidence is the Holy Spirit. Those who have received it will agree with the bible because it was also written with the Holy Spirit. The beliefs of the Gnostics didn't come from the Holy Spirit because they disagree with the bible. It's that simple. But you prove Jesus right when he said about the Holy Spirit: "The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. "

BALDUCCI

In the history of Christianity, one sect is wrong when it can no longer make its arguments or defend its position because it has been banned and burned.