Phlox Pyros

The following are claimed to "refer, not to Jesus, but to the savior godman of ancient pagan cultures. Basically the same story line, modified a bit from culture to culture. Primarily Osiris, Dionysus, and Mithras.":

• God made flesh, the Savior and "son of God"
• his father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin
• he is born in a humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds
• he offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism
• he miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony
• he rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people waved palm leaves to honor him
• he dies at Easter as a sacrifice for the sins of the world
• after his death he descends into hell, then on the third day you rises from the dead and ascends into heaven in glory
• his followers await his return as the judge during the last days
• his death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize his body and blood

I would like to see textual proof of each of these resemblances, otherwise I cannot accept these statements as truth. Can you or anyone provide internet links or books which contain these stories (also, preferably, accompanied by original languages...). Thanks.

WishboneDawn

That there are huge chunks that likely aren't? I'd agree with that.

That the whole is complete fiction? No, I don't think that.


I'm not sure yet. I think there are reasons...I'm not sure I think they're convincing. I've read lots of interesting stuff on this site about Jesus as myth that I'd like to explore for instance.

Yes...But that's not what I'm saying if you mean 'you' to be people other then myself. I think much of it is fiction myself...embellishment in parts, pure myth in others.

I don't think it's pure fiction and I don't think it's all fact and truth. I think it's a few thousand years of writing and editing that was crammed, by committees more often then not, into one book.

I don't think Jacob really wrestled God or Noah built an ark. I don't even think there were such people. I think (I don't know) that it's not unlikely that King David was a real guy though he's both portrayed in fictional extremes in the Bible. I think there was a Jesus and there are likely some things in the Gospels that have some basis in fact but I'm not sure which (give me more time on that. I've got a list of books to read that's a mile high now).

And all that's subject to change.

But could you clarify on what you mean by pure fiction? Would a work of historical fiction, say on the battle of the Gates of Thermopolae (Gates of Fire, Stephen Pressfield, GREAT read), with lots of factual elements be 'pure' fiction for you?

Roger Pearse

The content of the statements above is not to be found in any ancient text or inscription of Mithras. Here is a collection of all the ancient literary references to Mithras known to me.

All the best

Roger Pearse

Phlox Pyros

Interesting. So, the quotes don't seem to be true for Mithras. What about the other ancient Gods mentioned?

Tigers!

What a lovely thing to say.

Roger Pearse

I'm afraid that I do not have a list of the primary sources on which our knowledge of the mythos of Osiris and Dionysius rest. That's why I confined my comment to Mithras, on which I do.

What is disturbing to me is that the advocates of this position don't seem to know the data for their claim either. And, while I have heard the view above repeated endlessly online, I have yet to see any of those making the claim display any interest whatever in the question of finding out whether it is so by researching up the data. Had they done so, we would have something useful and educational about both Osiris and Dionysius online.

In my very humble view, this moves the whole story out of the category of statements about the ancient world into the realm of low-grade not-very-honest mud-slinging; not dissimilar in kind to anti-semitic smears about Jewish atrocities.

Of course many of those who repeat it do so in good faith. But if it does not convey any historical information, as far as we can tell, and does not encourage those who say it to locate any, what else can we consider it?

Just my tuppence-worth. I'm a bit allergic to pseudo-information, you see: stuff that gives people have a warm glow of superiority to everyone else while in fact making them more ignorant than if they had never heard of it.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto

Roger - note Richard Carrier's comment on Kersey Grave's 13 Crucified Saviors written in 2003:
In the meantime, the claim that Jesus is really Mithras or Krishna lives on, despite all of our efforts to set the record straight without overreacting.

Chris Weimer

Christians don't necessarily have to deal with this. Honest atheists will debunk this BS on their own time.

Spanky

If it is BS then where the hell did it come from and why did it get there?

Is it some vast atheistic conspiracy?

ETA: I see this stuff in atheist literature everywhere. If it is wrong and misleading, I would like to know. It means nothing to me nor my disbelief in the whole jesus thing. I just prefer to know the truth. Again, if it is BS, why do we rehash it and why is it "propagandised" in our writings?

Toto

It is out of date scholarship. It was written before scholars refined their standards of evidence. There may be some core of truth in the idea that Christianity borrowed at least some of its myths and themes from pagans, but that has yet to be demonstrated.

I don't know why people keep repeating it. The truth is favorable enough to the atheist position, and there is no need to make up stories like this. But people really like clear, easy stories that paint things in bright colors, with uncomplicated messages of good vs evil. That's how religions probably started.